The Alchemy of Pleasure: Transforming Relationships with Sasha and Moritz ep. 78
Let's be real: navigating ethical non-monogamy (ENM) can be thrilling, confusing, and sometimes downright messy. But no worries! We've got power couple Sasha and Moritz on deck to spill the tea on building a strong ENM connection.
With refreshing candor, they peel back the layers on cultivating extraordinary intimacy. You'll discover practical strategies for courageously expressing desires, setting boundaries, and managing the inevitable ups and downs with grace. Their approach transcends relationship structures, providing a roadmap for deeper vulnerability and growth within yourself and your connections.
Here are just a few of the invaluable gems you'll gain:
Powerful communication techniques to foster trust and understanding
Mindset shifts to take full responsibility for your emotions
Reframing jealousy as a gateway to intimacy instead of a roadblock
Using sex as a sacred practice to accelerate personal evolution
Staying true to your authentic self amidst societal pressures
And don't forget to check out Sasha and Moritz's website, Kerkmann Hood Coaching https://www.kerkmannhoodcoaching.com/ to learn more about their work and explore the world of passionate, non-monogamous relationships.
Do you feel like you could use some help with your relationships?
Get on a free call with Ellecia to see how she can help you move through the challenges of jealousy, fear, anxiety, and insecurities in a way that strengthens your relationships, deepens your trust, and communication, and leaves you feeling confident.
https://elleciapaine.com/call
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Credits
- Host/Producer: Ellecia Paine
- Editor/Producer: Danny Walters
- Hosted on Buzzsprout
Transcript:
Ellecia: 0:14
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships enthusiastic, non-monogamy polyamory, swinging kink and our lives. You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, nope, we're not monogamous. Hey, hey, hey. Okay, let's be real. Navigating ethical non-monogamy, consensual, non-monogamy polyamory enthusiastic non-monogamy it can be thrilling and confusing, and sometimes it's downright messy. But today I've got a really amazing couple here, sasha and Maritz. They're on deck to share a bit about how they built a really strong E&M connection. These two have been coaching couples combined for over 20 years, helping people create passionate and fulfilling relationships that defy the norm, go beyond what is standard, and their own journey is anything but traditional, and they're living proof that E&M can be a recipe for incredible intimacy and incredible growth. So here's a couple of things you can expect in today's episode some communication hacks, some ways to navigate jealousy and other tough emotions in a way that strengthens your connection, how to leverage your intimacy for personal growth and transformation, some boundaries that feel really liberating, showing up as your most authentic self, and a bunch more. So, whether you're like just starting your E&M journey or you're a curious veteran. These two have got a lot of great information to share. They're living proof that open communication, personal freedom and a commitment to growth can create a really extraordinary relationship dynamic. I know that you're going to walk away with some tips you can use and I'm excited for you to hear it.
Ellecia: 2:21
Ps, if you're loving the show, leave us a five star review and tell us your biggest non-monogamy takeaway. Your review helps keep these conversations going. Enjoy Cool. There we go. Cool, awesome. So I am. I'm really excited that you guys are here and that we're recording a podcast together.
Moritz: 2:45
Likewise we are too.
Sasha: 2:46
Thanks for having us on.
Ellecia: 2:48
Absolutely, Absolutely, Would you? Let's start by. I would love it if you would just introduce yourselves really quick for the listeners and let let us let them know who you are why don't you start um, we are Sasha and Moritz.
Sasha: 3:09
We are a married couple. We've been um married for six years and we teach classes on relationship and um intimacy and we're very we're very non-dogmatic. So we don't believe that there's one kind of relationship style that's the right style. We really support couples in understanding communication, their own communication and defining really clearly what they want to have in their relationships, what they want to receive from their partners that maybe they aren't receiving or they don't know how to ask for and support them to create a vision with their partner to make their relationship the best it can possibly be, authentically. Authentically and in alignment with their own personal values of who they are and what's important to them in the world.
Sasha: 3:52
And we've been working together for almost the entire time we've been married. So very early on in our relationship, morris is like noticing that we both do really similar work and he's like how could we not do this together? And really gave me the kick in the ass to say yes, let's definitely work together and let's bring our purpose and passion into the world as a couple. So that's been really brilliant and amazing and just not something that I felt like I was ready to dive into and he was like of course, we can't even avoid this. It's so amazing and I'm so grateful that he was able to name that so early on.
Ellecia: 4:32
I love that so much. That's amazing. Do you want to add anything, Art?
Moritz: 4:40
Yeah, I would say like I think the main thing that I would say has us stand out or has our work be like unique and all in the big pool of like relationship coaching, is that Sasha and I really want to find out who is the individual and how do they need the relationship to be like. There is like I often have like a big allergy to any kind of rules and to having a spiritual facade and all of those kinds of things. Like, I really like to keep it down to earth and keep it real. I'm usually someone if we are in a coaching session with someone or we teach a class, and I notice very quickly where people try to perform or do it a certain way because they've learned it somewhere, and I'm usually the first one to ask like but is that really who you are and is that really actually what you want? In that situation and I love to advocate for, especially for men.
Moritz: 5:40
I think, especially right now in this time, there's like so much like this whole like strain of like emasculation that's happening. That's like coming to the surface where I think there's just so much gender war in relationships and, um, yeah, like when I work with, when I work with men, because Sasha works with the women, I work with the men and then we work together with a couple. I really like to draw men out in a way of like, what is actually? How do you actually want to be in the relationship? Because I think one of the biggest issues that we see is a commitment issue, like men not being able to fully meet their partner because they think that they have to meet them in a particular way. That is like scripted by society towards them, and then it's like running a tape.
Moritz: 6:31
But it's more like what I'm trying to like point towards with men is like, how do you want to show up?
Moritz: 6:37
Because when you do it from a place of passion, from a place of like I love this, then no one needs to push you to be committed, but you want to be committed because it's your, it's the thing that you really love doing. And, um, and I would say, like Sasha and I like, look at this not just from a relationship point of view, but from the relationship from the individual and then outward, like we currently, like we have started with our relationship and really tried to figure out who we are, what we want as a couple, and our desires were very, very far apart in the beginning, and now we've done this work to now have this piece of land that we bought completely raw and we're developing it together and we're putting our vision into it and our work is aligned with our vision. And that's really the larger arc of what we do with couples it's like help them really get committed into their lives and into what they're passionate about.
Ellecia: 7:38
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. I love that, uh, I, I, I love what you said about working with men, especially today, uh, and and what is happening for men, um, and I'm, I'm curious, could you, could you say a little bit more about that? Um, because, like you're talking about you know, the podcast is Nope, we're not monogamous, which a lot of people would think means not committed, right, and so I'm really curious, when you talk about that, that, that that commitment, how how those two things align or intersect, how those two things align or intersect.
Moritz: 8:20
Well, I think for me, the main reason why we are not monogamous is because we both love community, like one of the reasons why we have this piece of land is because we want to develop it to be a place of community where guests can come, but also where multiple families live here together with us and, um, we both really just love going and diving deeper with other people, like whether that be a friend or like, both of us really love to have good friendships that have depth to them and, um and same like there's a, there's a way that when you actually like, let's say, you have a play partner, like there's a whole different depth that you can reach with that person, especially in a sexual content context where, like you can I would say like you can dive into realms where it becomes more like shamanistic, like deep soul kind of work together, because that's what that play space allows for and that's what's interesting to me in that non-monogamous realm realm. But then I consider this here like I am married to this woman, I am, I am committed to this woman. There is nothing that's gonna take us out.
Moritz: 9:46
I sometimes hear people, when they consider polyamory or something, be like well, but um, I fear that you might find someone and you fall in love and run away. And then I often hear the counter, the counter answer to this and it's like well, yeah, that might happen. And I think that's that's problematic. That's a problematic answer, because for us it's like no, that might not happen. Like here's a commitment, we have a family. No, that might not happen.
Moritz: 10:20
Like here's a commitment, we have a family, we have a larger game that we're playing, that we committed to, which then gives us actually the permission to be like I go home and I was like I was on a date and I'm like, wow, I totally fell in love with that person in that moment, you know, and we actually get to share that because we don't have that insecurity of like, well, maybe I fall in love and then walk away from this because I found something better. There is no like I found something better. The best thing that I can have is a commitment to something, because otherwise I'll always run the risk of running with the goodies. But I know as a practitioner that, like I have the depth to know it's not the goodies what I'm in for, it's the struggles that I'm in for, because if I work through those struggles I get out at a whole different level.
Ellecia: 11:08
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. That's amazing Very much. There's something you know we have like this culture that says, like, if you love somebody, like if you fall in love with somebody, whether it's you know for an hour or a day or a year, that you have to now go and make a bunch of life changes, like, if, what if you fall in love with somebody and then you run away? Well, what if I fall in love with somebody and I don't change anything about my life at all? Like what if that's just an experience I'm having, it's an emotional state I get to have?
Sasha: 11:42
Totally yeah. And I think I think in our, our relationship, and one of our personal values that we both share is like bringing what we get in our connections with other people, whether it's like, oh, I fell in love for an hour hour, or like, felt the experience of love in my body and got to notice what that felt like and, um, or I learned something about myself, or I saw something, you know he would say I saw something in her that, like had me notice this other part of me that, like, I didn't have access to yesterday. And then he's bringing what our language word is like, bringing the energy back into this relationship that we have and sharing with each other as a resource essentially to be shared between the two of us. And that can look a lot of ways and I think that that is really hard to understand. You know, like you said before, we were recording about, like, if you've never experienced it, if you've never done that before, it's hard to even grok.
Sasha: 12:58
Well, what would it feel like to like? Well, so I tell them about this thing, and then we're jealous, and then we're angry and like, yeah, and then you get to know each other inside of jealousy. Then you get to know each other inside of. Like that's intimacy right, when we let the parts of ourselves that we would usually hide or withhold in order to control the situation or think that we can control another person, which, just because we have deep commitment with each other and we are married, doesn't mean that we consent to the illusion of I'm going to control you and who you are and what you do and what you think right and I think culturally that it's very much the norm is that people choose monogamy because they think it comes with well then, I never have to feel jealous, or that I never have to feel alone, or that I never have to feel like my partner isn't telling me everything and I'm like monogamy doesn't give me any of those things.
Sasha: 13:48
You know, like I have what I want with my partner because I express that I want it and that's my sovereignty and my autonomy as a woman. Is like telling him what I want and taking responsibility for being in the negotiation of it and being in the feelings of it and seeing the jealousy or the pain or the anger like negative emotions, as just as exalted as joy and ecstasy and pleasure and like the good stuff. Right that like I want to know him in all locations and I want him to see me in all locations. I don't want to leave anything out because I believe all of it. We believe all of it is sacred and all of it is valuable to the growth of who we both are and who we want to be and what we want to create in the world.
Ellecia: 15:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Beautiful. How um. How have you navigated, uh, jealousy or insecurity in your relationship?
Moritz: 15:56
I would say that. So my my understanding these days of of so like, let's say, sasha goes on a date I had an experience once Sasha goes on a date and, um, everything was kind of like clear. Like I knew what they're going to do, how the flow of the day is going to go, and, um, and I was with our kid at the same time and then there was a moment where, like I thought they're gonna come back and um and meet me at the playground and I saw the car of theirs go by and then to me it felt like it took like an hour longer from that point and I was like all of a sudden at the playground and I was like I don't know what's happening and like why are they taking so long now? Why are they sitting in the car? Like all of that. And that was like that was like a more recent event where I felt some form of like jealousy or fear.
Moritz: 16:57
I think jealousy is a form of fear and because I don't get jealous if she's like I'm going to have a date with this guy and like this is what we're going to do, even if it's like a like sex or whatever, and I'm like cool, go have fun.
Moritz: 17:12
But at that moment I was like I felt that like insecurity staying like, and I haven't felt that for a while.
Moritz: 17:19
But, um, and to me what it's what it is is like, and to me what it is is like there's something happening that takes me out of control, out of the known Like we have usually so much like agreements and like we share about what we're going to do and what we desire and what we want, even with the other person, that it's very transparent and sometimes you hit those moments when a date or something takes a next step without that being agreed upon with each other and that, I think, causes these like stings, these like moments of jealousy at least it does for me when I'm like, ah, I don't know what's happening, you know, and, and it's like an internal, like unsettlement and I, I, and with her, because I trust her so much, I can be inside that sting and be like all right, let me feel this Like again, like I'm a practitioner, like, um, I, I like to sit with my feelings and I know there's nothing going to be like life changing, like I just get to experience that.
Moritz: 18:34
So I think that's how we are with them, but at the same time, we also always try to work that, like the entire experience, actually feels pleasurable to both people and safe to both people.
Sasha: 18:45
Yeah, pleasurable to both people and safe to both people. Yeah, yeah, I think we have a really good practice of caring for each other and both really having a willingness and a curiosity to like hear the jealousy and and do our best to express the jealousy. What I was thinking about for me is, like I try to express it without blame, like I don't want him to take on what I'm feeling or naming or like what's arising for me, as as though he's done something wrong, you know, because I think there's a lot of stuff in our shadow about like, oh, I can't want something else, and that like, even though we've both been practicing in open relationship and ethical non-monogamy is the term that I like the best I don't know if any of them really describe how I actually feel, but that's the one that I think I fall the closest into We've been practicing for a long time, like before we were together and with other partners, both of us with other partners before we were with each other. So there's a lot of practice under our belt and a lot of knowing that you like, you go in, you have an experience, a feeling arises, you come back, you share the feeling, you, you can recover from those places and I think, if you're brand new in this, in this world of trying just trying it out, or like wanting to experience what it feels like to connect with someone else who's not your partner, the jealousy stuff is very intense and it can. It can knock us out still like we're seasoned practitioners and it still can knock us out.
Sasha: 20:12
But I really work on having consciousness around, not bringing shame or blame into the equation, so that I'm really taking responsibility for what I felt as my own feeling, not saying like you did something and you made me feel, you know, like to me it's that's a lack of vulnerability and I really want to bring my vulnerability Like if I felt jealous, I want him to. I want to. I want to express that in a way where I'm open and I'm soft in my expression so that he can be connected to me in it, cause that's really what I want in the place where the jealousy arises is like I have a fear that he can be connected to me in it, because that's really what I want in the place where the jealousy arises is like I have a fear that he doesn't care that there was pain or or, and I think vice versa. I don't want to speak for you, but I think, like there's always this fear of, like you know, my feelings didn't have an impact for you and you weren't thinking of me, and that's the fear, not the reality, but that, like, I have learned that the more vulnerably I can share and the more open I can be when I'm allowing him to be connected to the experience I had, the better I feel afterwards, the further alchemy that happens in our relationship and that creates growth, and I'm like that's worth the price of admission, right, like not even the experience I had with someone else, which is lovely and great and like hot, and I could talk about that all day. I think it's more easy to access why that part would be good.
Sasha: 21:35
But the feelings that arise and the experience of repairing and coming back together, repairing if there's a difficulty or a misstep in the agreement, like that that creates just as much, if not more, as the like sexy, like going deep with another person that I'm not married to is like really hot and fun.
Sasha: 21:56
And oftentimes for me, when I'm in those experiences that we see as like the high part of it, you know, I'm like, oh, I often, even though I don't want to compare people, I often find myself like, oh, I miss this part of this person I know so well or I miss this experience that, like it's so easy for me to access safety and letting go here and navigating accessing safety and letting go with someone else teaches me things about myself that I wouldn't get if it was always just easy to drop in and be safe and let go with someone else.
Sasha: 22:27
Teaches me things about myself that I wouldn't get if it was always just easy to drop in and be safe and let go with the person I know. I trust that's like okay, this is, you know, with my eyes closed, easy to feel the block in myself and work together, dismantle it and become more open. In a sexual experience or a sensual moment, you know, and when I'm doing that with someone else, I might access a lock in myself that I didn't know was there, that I probably presented to him a lot and he might know is there, but I might not have as much consciousness with it until I'm in that experience with someone else.
Ellecia: 23:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing. I, um, I, I love the, the idea. I love that you guys keep saying practitioner right, because not only in your work, but also in your relationship. Right, because it is it's all a practice. And jealousy is something that I've had to like. It was a huge thing for me and I had to spend a long time working through it, and now, when I feel it, I'm like, oh, oh, that's right, that's what that feels like. This is not a good feeling, right, but now I can look at it and be like, oh, I'm having this not good feeling that I can go and share with my partner and talk to them and you know, it'll, this will pass and it will be fine. I'm not going to die, it's okay.
Sasha: 23:50
Yeah, and I really believe, as being a practitioner in other arenas you know, having a meditation practice, having, um, you know, doing physical things with my body, yoga and like movement practices over my lifetime and lots of other kinds of places where I accessed knowing myself in a lot of locations inside of practice I really learned that piece around. Just seeing how I show up when one of those things is challenging or triggering or like that gives me a whole new layer of knowing myself that I wouldn't get if I just like only did my practice when it was easy and it looked good, you know.
Ellecia: 24:31
Definitely, definitely, excuse me, there was something else you said that I wanted to. I it'll come, it'll come back to me, I'm sure. Um, you guys have it sounds like you have like a really solid level of communication. Um, what are some uh like like communication strategies that have that have worked well for you guys in in building safety and security in your relationship?
Moritz: 25:04
Yeah, I, actually it's. I wanted to say something on that. Anyway, I think really the main thing, like Sasha said, like oh, and then like, fears come up and they're not the reality. And I do in our work I do see people where their fears become reality and it's because there is not the full level of care and people, people trick each other into like turning their fears into into a reality. You know, it's like, oh, he doesn't care, and then eventually it leads to a breakup and then it's the confirmation, right, like, that person doesn't care, and the guy is is at the same time like, oh, like I tried so many times, I cared so many times, but it wasn't rewarded, and like now I don't care anymore, right, like, and those things do turn into realities for people, unfortunately, um, and yeah, you know, like we can push it. We can push it to that edge sometimes in our relationship too, and it can like get intense and critical and like.
Moritz: 26:11
The good thing is, like both sasha and I have have things outside of the relationship that help us to come back to clarity, and I think that's really, really important. And I mean we used to like have teachers or coaches ourselves, and now we like, just have practices and we have our own insights that we know how to access. And then, in our current workshops, for example, we teach two things. One is the truth carrot, which is basically like it's a tool how to not get caught in all of the distractions that we throw at each other, sometimes like the blame game and the complaining, and they're like, well, you haven't done this or that, that can be all we call, we'll call those the carrot greens, right, but we want to get to the root of it and um, we'll basically, in that workshop we teach how do we actually get to the root of the issue?
Moritz: 27:21
And often the root of the issue, especially if, if you are as a man, like if you are working with a woman, a woman has a lot of different things not trained to and, I think, also evolutionary, are not, um, are not raised to be, because this is. This is something that I thought recently, like why there's so many much conflict between men and women. I think is because men, women, speak a more emotional, like attuned language that they had to develop in order to raise a baby, because the baby doesn't talk in logic terms. The baby emotes what it needs, so the mother has to learn this and every woman, I think, has an embodied sense of this. But this is often what goes wrong in relationships, because the woman wants to be understood on that level that she's trained at like, that she's basically evolved into this emotion, like emoting, kind of like communication, and when she starts to talk about a problem in a logical sense, it doesn't make any sense to the man, and then the man is really more the rational guy who's like later on, takes the children and then shows them how to do their jobs and all of that kind of stuff in the world. Like the man is the one who takes them eventually and teaches them the more rational language.
Moritz: 29:00
But then there is a problem between the two and these days we've like developed a bunch of like tools that help us to come together into that, into that communication that's non-verbal, that understanding of what is really going on. And for sometimes now, like we both are very fluent in this. Like sometimes we talk together with a woman and we both like she's talking about a problem and we're like, yeah, she has desire about this and it's like totally not related, but we can feel it, you know, and vice versa. Also, sasha is now really incredible at like knowing when it is about a logical like, like hands on approach, like, especially like when we do work here on the land or we create workshops.
Moritz: 29:55
There's a whole like structural element where it's good. If you connect it to your senses, it's going to be even better. You're going to create really amazing structures if you're connected to your senses. It's going to be even better. You're going to create really amazing structures if you're connected to your senses but you know how to translate them and then put them into like a structural A to B kind of plan, and I think both of those skills are really important in relationship when you want the relationship to really work. And in order to get there. This is another one. We like to give it silly names it's the talking couch. That is another tool that we teach you the talking couch. The talking couch, yes.
Sasha: 30:33
Like sitting together on the couch and talking. It's very basic, but it's very powerful.
Moritz: 30:40
And it came about because we basically like we were in a place where we had constantly conflicts and we just couldn't hear each other and we couldn't penetrate it. And eventually we were like and then often we were talking about it out of order, like we were supposed to go somewhere, meet people, and all of a sudden we would get into an argument and so eventually it would be like this is the couch, this is where we talk about this stuff and none nowhere else. Okay, this is the only place where we're going to do this. And then we would sit there for hours sometimes and just actually like, really dive deep and be like and really listen to each other really listen to each other.
Moritz: 31:21
Someone would say something and then the other person would be like this is what I'm understanding you saying, not just reflective listening, but like this is what I'm understanding at the core is that everything and like really draw it out and have a place where we can sync up the language differences and where we can really then from the language also get to a place of understanding each other's nervous system, how the nervous system of the other person works, at depth. So now, when you do that, eventually you have a constant intuitive connection where I know exactly how Sasha feels in every given moment. There's no communication needed because we have done the groundwork to have almost, like I would say, create like a mycelial network of connections between our nervous systems that we know at any given point what's going on. She can even drive away with the car, be in the supermarket and if she's like has an issue there, there is a high chance that over here, without a text message, there is a high chance that over here, without a text message.
Ellecia: 32:27
I'll feel that something is up, amazing. Yeah, no, that makes a ton of sense. My husband and I it was the bathtub we would sit in the bathtub for hours and have these conversations and just keep unpeeling the layers of the onion until until we got to the core and actually understood what was happening for each other, like okay, now we're all wrinkly and we're at the center.
Sasha: 32:54
Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, and I love the carrot also. I want to just add one more, which is in the essence of what Moritz said. But I wanted to say directly that we are very committed to a practice of relentless truth telling and I think this is a really interesting one, especially for people who like, oh, we've been married 10 years, we've been married 17 years. We totally tell each other everything and there's often a lot that's unsaid and it's not consciously and it's not in in a spiteful manner. You know it's not people like knowingly holding back, but we do have a lot of conditioning patterns where, like, we withhold in order to control. I think for women it's a lot about the illusion of control, um, and also like tell a half truth or tell what we think our partner wants to hear instead of what's really happening for us. And that patterning, if you don't look at it and you don't address it is very the word that's coming to mind is expensive in the relationship because ultimately you have left unsaid a lot of what you want, a lot of what you need, a lot of what you're feeling, and that has a really big impact on how you both feel about the relationship. And it's not only women that withhold.
Sasha: 34:16
I think there is a form of this that men do as well, and so, like we are very like one of our, I would say like our simplest communication tool is like telling each other the truth, even if we think it might hurt feelings, even if it's not what our partner wants to hear, even if, you know, I think we have a culture of like taking this is especially for women, but I think any people of any gender do this one If we think something is going to make our partner angry, sad or, um, you know, any negative emotion, basically we either don't tell it, we sugarcoat it, we withhold it, we change it around, we try to fix it before they know, because we don't want to have to feel their emotional response.
Sasha: 35:01
And I think or I'll just speak for the women that, like I, for a long time and I'm still working on this would feel like if he's angry, I need to take responsibility for what he's angry about, even if I didn't do it, and so then it would have me not tell him things that might make him angry, because I was like, if he's angry, I'm responsible for that anger and that comes from, you know, know, family patterning and dysfunctional things that were put into me unconsciously by my lineage right, which isn't the responsibility of one person.
Sasha: 35:33
It's really passed down and just to honor that, like you come into relationship with a lot of conditioning that you don't even know you have and people are like, okay, you want to get married, okay, you want to live in a two-bedroom house and have three kids and a dog, and like what color will our fence be? And like, maybe, like what city we want to live in? But like really having the conversation about what is what has come in with you is very difficult to do and everything's falling apart if they don't do that right and we did our best to to bring some of that to light and have some consciousness In our wedding.
Sasha: 36:05
We did shadow vows, so we did, like our regular vows where we like said the things we do want to do, and we also named all the patterns that we're bringing in from our family lineage and from our personal experiences, and we did this in front of our friends and family, because that's who we are and that's what we wanted to do, and it was really powerful to acknowledge it and to put it out on the table.
Sasha: 36:26
And I think we really live our relationship that way and we hold the truth as, like, a very sacred offering that we can bring to each other. That is not like, oh, let me just give you this thing that I like don't really want to tell you and like, feel really responsible, like, look at the places in myself where I'm not responsible for fixing his anger. His anger doesn't need to be fixed. I'm now, like, at a place where I'm so grateful that he's willing to allow me to feel and to see him in his full expression of his anger. You know, I think there's a lot of different words for this, but, like, we just use the word anger.
Moritz: 37:02
We're not. We're not talking about abusive.
Sasha: 37:05
No, no, no, right, we're not talking about the unconscious, unresponsible, but I do think there's a place where we pick up, as women, a lot that doesn't belong to us and that's very exhausting, and so women are like it's too hard, I can't do it, I don't want to have this conversation, I won't bring it to him, I just go to my girlfriends, it stays with my therapist and I don't talk to my partner and like, long-term, that builds resentment and that builds a fear of like he can't handle me or he doesn't want to handle me Right, and it like it has me not bring my full emotion to him. He trusts me enough to express fully with me and I can know in in most of my moments, right. There are, of course, moments where I fall out of this but know that I'm not responsible for changing him or fixing him, but that I can be present with what's happening for him and that's a gift to him and it's a gift to me for that to be welcomed, to be expressed without you know, he's not he to the best of his ability, he's expressing it without making it my responsibility, right, and that's a place that we've worked on and we've like really um, done some um fine work. I'm thinking of like detonating a bomb, you know, like fine work with high level, high intensity, emotion, to allow that to be expressed in a healthy way and also to take responsibility for, like taking care of ourselves on the other side of that, like he also takes care of himself and I also take care of myself, and that's an important ingredient.
Sasha: 38:33
But just wanted to name that. Like telling the truth in your relationship. If you bottle it up for 10 years, of course there's a huge backlash when you finally let it out yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally.
Ellecia: 38:44
I, yeah, totally, totally. I love, I love how you named like taking each of you taking care of yourself. That's the thing that. Well, first of all, like human brains want to be comfortable, like our brains will go to all links to stay comfortable Right and so, um, I think that that is kind of one of the traps. I don't know if the trap's the right word, but like definitely have habits of monogamy that we get sucked into, like I've had so many people say to me I don't know how you do it. I like it takes so much energy just having one partner and I'm like, well, the way I'm able to do that is I trust my partners to manage their own emotions and I don't do it for them. That takes so much, so much energy and effort off of my plate. If I, if I can just let them handle their emotions and communicate with me instead of trying to like fix things and hold it all for them and take, take the responsibility for it, that's a lot of effort.
Sasha: 39:41
Totally. It's exhausting and like, I think, a lot of lot of of, especially women. But I think both partners in in monogamous relationships are doing that unconsciously and they have no idea how much they're doing it and how much it's impacting their energy.
Moritz: 39:54
I think people are doing it constantly and I think also, like I'm, I wouldn't recommend non-monogamy to anyone Like I think like this is something that like comes to you and I think if your relationship is still feeling, uh, like work and exhausting, I think then like stay with it and like see what work needs to be done, because my relationship doesn't feel exhausting, like to me, sasha feels like a teammate, like it's actually energy generative, my relationship more than anything else in my life. And I think if that's not being done and if a person is still hooked in this, like I'm looking for comfort and I'm looking for, like, security, I think this is really where non-monogamy gets a bad rap, because you do fall into the trap of, um, yeah, where you like unconsciously, you're looking for like a comfort, thing from the pain in your own relationship and thing from the pain in your own relationship. And that's really where I'd say like like keep your finger hands off from that kind of stuff.
Sasha: 41:13
Sorry you have a truck go by. Is it really loud for you?
Ellecia: 41:16
I didn't hear it, okay, great um, yeah, because I wouldn't.
Moritz: 41:40
I think it's important that if you go and have other partners, that one is really, really hasn't has access to a level of honesty not just with your partner, but also a level of honesty with myself, and I caught myself many times where I'm like oh, I'm doing this for a motif that. I wasn't aware of and that's, I think, incredibly important, because otherwise, yeah, it's like you one place you play with fire, otherwise I would say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally I agree. You, uh, I love it.
Ellecia: 42:07
It agree. Um you, uh, it's a, it's a. What high level practice.
Moritz: 42:14
Polyamory or non-monogamy?
Ellecia: 42:18
It definitely is. Yeah, it's. It's something that, yeah, you have to have a lot of self-awareness. You have to have, um, a lot of, yeah, you have to have a lot of self-awareness. You have to have a lot of courage and be willing to go places that you otherwise might not have to like I wouldn't do this, like spice things up, for example like that wouldn't be a reason for me.
Moritz: 42:39
Like, I'll be like why is it not spicy where we are? Like what's in the way? Which channel is blocked?
Moritz: 42:45
you know, because I think if there's like I'm not a spiritualist, I'm not very much like woo woo, but I do know what it feels like when things are on and you could call this an enlightenment moment, right, and like I know what it feels like when our relationship is enlightened, when it is turned on, when it is like electricity is flowing, you know, and if that light switch isn't on, I rather look for the light switch than look for something that's spicing it up, you know. And then when it's on, when the relationship is actually on, and then you bring some other elements in, then it becomes fun, then it becomes like something that like, uh like, provokes growth and provokes a journey together.
Ellecia: 43:33
Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Um, you, you've mentioned um that you're you're, you know you're very open about your relationship and it's way outside of the box for a lot of people. How do you two navigate the social expectations around monogamy versus non-monogamy and live your authentic truth in the face of society?
Moritz: 44:03
It's not really coming up for me, to be honest, because we are not living with other partners together, and so I think when we got together, sasha had another partner that was very present and that brought up the topic of like, okay, like, uh, parents and such and such would like know about it, and you would have these like awkward conversations, and these days I think I've like gone through so much of that like having we confronted the question of like, were we all?
Sasha: 44:41
it was another male partner who was my lover and partner, and not more as his lover and partner, but sort of you know whatever shape that is, I don't know, there's a name for it. Yeah, we didn't use any specific name, it was just I had two partners and we were talking about creating a life together and, um, the question came up of, like you know, morris is not American and this other partner asked me to marry him early on. And like, going into that story, I think right now doesn't, but I think that was the moment in our relationship where we were really confronting it, because Moritz had to ask the question. You know, like what's happening for me here. If Sasha's gonna be married to someone else, um, what is it?
Moritz: 45:26
what does it look like?
Moritz: 45:27
that's more of an internal, that's more again of an internal thing, but but that came from a social structure yeah, that came from a social structure person you know yeah but the thing about it is, back then I really like tried to make myself understood, like I like tried to like then I would like be prone to argue with people, especially those who would be like not in monogamy, because I think you are looking for that friction to like work something out inside of yourself.
Moritz: 45:57
I think you are looking for that friction to like work something out inside of yourself, and so it's often ends up like you arguing with your mother or with your siblings because they don't get it, you know, and all that kind of stuff.
Moritz: 46:14
And these days I'm not looking for that external like affirmation, confirmation anymore and like most of the time, unless someone is asking me with and I can feel that they genuinely curious, yeah, I don't talk about it. If someone comes and is curious, I'm like you can penetrate me with your questions as long as you like I love it, I'm, I'm, it's super fun for me to like talk about it, educate, educate about it, like give insights. And I have that with some of my friends who are like really like absorb that stuff, don't want that for themselves, but they're curious and they're like it's a nice conversation, but the moment someone is like well, but that's like the moment that tone shifts and it becomes an argument. I'm like I'm out, I don't argue with people about this. It's like, ah no, thank you, it robs my energy, I just don't do it. I'm like I won't talk about it with you.
Sasha: 47:13
If you argument Because, especially if they don't have an idea about it, you, if you argument because, especially if they don't have an idea about it, they're just going to come in and pour all of their judgments and their prejudices on you and you're supposed to work that out for them and I'm like no, thank you yeah, yeah, I think I also like I'm very similar to moritz in that I'm I really like let the tone of where the other person's at lead on how much information I'm sharing, and like I I noticed places in myself where there was a time where I was like, ooh, can I like say that I like had sex with another partner and put that publicly on my Facebook with like 200, 2000 friends and like family that that wouldn't get it, but also like isn't really looking for it. So like extended family, you know, like it's. I've sort of like gotten over the fear, like there was a time when I was like, if I say this and they have a judgment and I have to take care of their judgment, like that can be a place to dump a lot of energy, which I don't worry about anymore. And I also really I also really like have become such a skillful feeler of why people are asking things that they're asking Nine times out of 10, I can answer their question and skillfully come back with a curious on like what they actually are asking, because usually if they're like, oh, you're in an open relationship and it's judgy, there's something that I want that they have and it might not be that they also want open relationship, but there's a level of freedom or a level of permission that they have desire for and they don't have approval in themselves to want that.
Sasha: 48:52
And I can gently bring it down to a level that's actually inside their hearing and ask them a question that brings the conversation back into a range that's more appropriate for where they are in their own personal development, and usually I'll get so much um notice for my skillfulness in question asking and like honing in on the spot with that person that they sort of let go of their like fear or judgment or like well, if I was that I would be. So you know there's like don't you get jealous is like the number one thing that people experience it themselves. Ask it's like don't you get jealous? And my answer to that question is yeah, I do. Yeah, that's all there is to say. You know it's like it's not really a conversation. Of course I get jealous. I'm human. Are you kidding? Like totally right, um, I share with my husband about, and like it's such a turn-on for us to talk about where I get turned on when he's with someone else and that one version of that is jealousy. Right, but like a lot of people who are asking this question, um, aren't in the range of understanding how those two kinds of turn on could be connected in the umbrella of jealousy, right, like that's more of a question for somebody who's also in this, in this world, or really like personally called to be in this world.
Sasha: 50:11
And I do know friends of mine who are really tend towards open, relating, tend towards um relationship that has like a form that's more malleable and more um dynamic than like structured and still and stable and always the same, and they might be with a partner who's not doesn't tend towards that as much. And I think you have to really listen to yourself because in partnership it's very easy If you're committed to someone over time, it's very easy to start becoming like that person, and something that I said to Moritz early on in our relationship was like I really love you and I really know that who I am is. I'm always going to be interested in like knowing myself in a lot of locations and having deep intimacy with other people and I want commitment and I want to build a life together and I'm very much a yes to that. And and, in addition, I know myself and I've been in an experience before where I tried to make a decision between two people and that was like so wrong for me to try to do that.
Sasha: 51:22
So I knew, going into our marriage and our relationship, like this is who I am, and he was also coming from an experience of being in open relationship and knowing the value of that. So that was like something that we talked about early on. But I do think you know, I agree with him. He said, like non-monogamy is not for everyone and I think that's really true and I do think that there are people who feel it in themselves and really know, and I just, if you're listening to this podcast and you're thinking about it and you're feeling some of what we're saying in yourself, like you can really trust your own inner knowing, and I think it's very easy to like, feel like we need to go with the crowd, and so if you have an inner knowing that says I'm really curious about this, I really want this, I really want to know myself in these different locations, to trust that too.
Ellecia: 52:08
Yeah, yeah, beautiful. I love that so much. Oh, that's so good. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would want to share with the listeners?
Sasha: 52:22
I thought of a little moment that I want to describe and talk about that. For us, our experience of intimacy and sex is also a practice. It's a place where we have a lot of alchemy, and this could exist inside monogamy. I think this could exist in any relationship but we really view our experience of sexual endeavors and sexual play and connection as a place to look at, because how you do one thing is how you do everything. So what happens in sex, what comes up in sex, what's brought up as a result of his desire, my desire, desires that are co-arising, desires that he has, that he thinks I want nothing to do with desires that I have that I don't know how to share, like all of those things are an opportunity for alchemy.
Sasha: 53:12
And we had an experience recently where we were like literally in the middle of making love, making out like we were.
Sasha: 53:20
We were completely in a scene with each other and there was a energetic place in me that wouldn't keep opening and I was gonna try to ignore it and he felt it and he like stopped what we were doing and just like paused, moving his body and said like I feel this place where there's something in you that isn't all the way open. Can we look at that together right now? And did it in such a gentle and loving and and curious way, right without attachment to like how it opened, and I was like I don't know if I know how to open it, and being able to share that in an experience like came from years of building up enough trust to be able to say that and not be like no, like let's keep going, it's fine, like I don't need anything. You know, there was a five or 10 years ago version of me that would have been like it's fine, it's good enough, I don't need to open that closed door you know, it's fine, it's good enough.
Sasha: 54:20
I don't need to open that closed door, you know, and he knew it needed to open before I knew it needed to open, and I trust him and I trust his sight and I trust his, his feeling and his body, you know. And so, like, we kind of worked together to like, talk about it, open it and draw out something that I had been angry about and scared about. That was from another interaction that we had had a few days before and I had been angry about and scared about. That was from another interaction that we had had a few days before and I had just been holding it in for a couple of days. And that's not how I want to play, but it's just what happened, you know.
Sasha: 54:46
And so we had this experience of being able to open something because of what we felt during sex, during intercourse, right, that we, I don't think would have gotten to in the same way if we were like, let's sit on the couch and talk about it, even though that's a tool that we totally love and use.
Sasha: 55:04
And so you drew me out to say the truth and to say it directly, and he, like kept asking me to get more honest until, like he was crying.
Sasha: 55:14
I was crying like we both kind of had this opening from me being willing to say like there was this moment where we both kind of had this opening from me being willing to say like there was this moment where you hurt me and this thing that you did was painful and here's the impact of it, and he wanted to feel it and he wanted to know that and I, even though I have all of this experience and knowing like I don't want to withhold from him and I don't want to take care of his feelings and like not deliver something because of my fear of his reaction, I was still holding onto it and it was actually blocking the intimacy, literally.
Sasha: 55:45
And so I think that's just such a powerful tool that we have gotten access to that we support other couples in gaining access to learning how to use your sex as a practice and learning how to use desire as a tool in your practice, and and it's not an easy thing to just go read a book and learn about you know like you have to really get experiential with this stuff and like I feel like it's such a gift to have a partner that wants that and to have a partner who's willing to stop us in the middle of sex and say something isn't open and we actually, like both, desperately want to open it well, I think I want to add one thing here and that's like I think a lot of men actually like.
Moritz: 56:31
The reason why I do this is because it actually gets me to the thing that I want and most men, the thing that most men want, okay, but the problem is that the men in this society Are conditioned to constantly fix and rescue, and the reason why they. And that, like I just recently had a coaching session with someone where we went into this really deeply and it was like, yeah, like, how is your relationship? It's okay, like all right. What does that mean? Like, how is your interactions? How is your connection going? Well, like, right now, we mostly like have logistical conversations. Okay, like it's about problem solving and all that kind of stuff. And the session went along and basically what we unearthed was I am fixing her.
Moritz: 57:29
Because most men are afraid that, like, if a woman has a bad mood or she's unhappy, she won't open and be turned on for sex. And most men, if I ask them, what do you want? What kind of sex do you want? I'm like, well, I like this kind of stuff and that, like, whatever it is, whether it's butt stuff or bdsm, whatever the fantasies are that they would like to try out, right. And I asked him like, why are you not doing it? And he's like well, my wife doesn't like it, oh, and then why don't you like bring it to her? Well then, she's not turned on about it. And this is like, literally like. What I describe sometimes is like men only want to do it with the expectations that the woman is going to like fall around their neck for it, like with, like some big anime eyes, you know being like about it. And when men don't get that, they they retract what they actually want they retracted like well, she doesn't like that anyway.
Moritz: 58:33
So like then they kind of like settle for a different reality where they like they accept the crumbs that a woman throws off, and and they only get the crumbs when they think that the woman is happy and turned on. So the solution to most men is like well, in order to make her happy and turned on, I have to fix all of her stupid problems and I have to like get the money. I have to like hear every complaint and take it personal and take it as if it's my problem, which then like leads to all these ego issues that men have right because they like take everything personal and it leads to this like problem solver, fixer knight in shiny armor kind of relationship and it leads nowhere. The only place where that leads is an endless discussion about which problem is going to get fixed next in the relationship and where stuff is not good enough yet and they never get to the cheese. It's not good enough yet and they never get to the cheese. They never actually have the moments where because it's it's like, and then the the the result of it was, and I talked to that particular man, I'm like because in the beginning of the session.
Moritz: 59:50
I was like, yeah, she wants to have more phone calls with me. And I'm like, are you having those? No, I'm wants to have more phone calls with me. And I'm like, are you having those? No, I'm too busy. And I asked him would you be too busy if she was gonna lay next, like would lay naked in front of you on the bed and be like come on? He like, uh, fuck, you got me. No, I wouldn't be too busy for that, and that's the thing. It's like men become too busy and too involved in their purpose right, but it's not really their purpose, it's just their stupid jobs because it's actually more comfortable to be busy all the time than to be dealing with their partners, because they're tired of fixing this stuff for their partners they're not actually getting what they're looking for in their relationship, and it's tiring, it's exhausting.
Moritz: 1:00:38
You know, and this is the thing it's like. What we are trying to get to is not how do you focus on your woman and make her happy, it's how do you become a man. That is so. I mean, I'm talking real purpose. I'm talking like you are sitting right in your passion. You want to get up at 7 am in the morning because you're on fire. You like have a mission and you are like that.
Moritz: 1:01:08
What happens is she cannot stay in her grumpy, complainy, turned off mentality Because eventually she's going to be like what am I doing here? This man is hella turned on. He knows what he wants in life. She knows that there is no space for her to stay in that place. And what happens then is a woman starts questioning and a woman starts to be like I got to turn on. I got to, like I got to to take out whatever I got to do, whatever it takes in order to actually rise to meet him. And most relationships that I come across it's it's the other way around. The woman is somewhat mostly turned on, here and there in a patchy way, and he's kind of like slugging after it because he's tired and exhausted. And he's kind of like slugging after it because he's tired and exhausted, because he's not fed by the crumbs that fall off of her. So it's really like how does he get turned on? Because then she's going to rise up to it and she's not going to continue emasculating him, because then both people start rising.
Sasha: 1:02:12
Yeah, and I think what's possible is that we both take a certain level of responsibility. You heard us talk about it over this hour, like the ways that we do it, and then like he rises and I rise, and the rise inspires the other partner to rise, rather than like all this energy on, like fixing or resenting or pleasing. Pleasing or acquiescing, like all of those things don't create me being the best woman I can be in him, being the best man he can be, but instead do the opposite.
Sasha: 1:02:44
Right and so really like, lifting, lifting myself and taking the focus off criticizing and controlling and him being in his truth and his, like, most joyful space, and inviting me to rise to meet him there. And like, like, not like, I'm going whether you come or not, but like I'm going and you're invited, you know like the ride is here and we can do it together and my ride is a good ride.
Moritz: 1:03:13
You know, like I, like I love my ride, like I'm, I can go on my ride without her, without her, if she's not rising to meet it. I'm like, okay, good, like have your, have your moment, do whatever you need. Like I'm gonna do my thing because I love doing my thing. That there's when you're in that space you don't have time to complain that your woman doesn't want to fuck you doesn't want to fuck you.
Ellecia: 1:03:41
Yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, the thing that comes to mind when you're talking about that is what I see so often of. You know, I want him to show up in this way or I want him to do this thing, and then, when he does, well, it wasn't fast enough, it wasn't soon enough, it didn't come in the right packaging, so I'm not going to accept it. Accept it and then like, just more and more friction shows up, more and more friction, and nobody's happy that's the spot that I'm in.
Moritz: 1:04:04
That's just. That's the spot of the anime eyes. You know, like a man puts out an idea and he wants her to like get so excited immediately and if it's not the case, I don't know what that exactly is. But there is some kind of like fear in most men that what we desire, if it's not meant with enthusiasm, then we don't want it like. It's somewhat like if I would ask her for a blowjob and she's like she didn't like. That's like when, when I talk about that with men, they're like I would never ask. I want her to offer it right, like with again. Like this like the woman has to excited to offer it Right, like with again like this, like the woman has to excitedly offer it. I'm like why don't you just ask? Well, because I wouldn't, actually I wouldn't stay hard, and that's the thing. Like the man, the man.
Ellecia: 1:04:49
I want you to want to do the dishes.
Moritz: 1:04:53
The man isn't actually in touch with his own body's turn on, because his body's turn on has become dependent on her turn on. So it's like her excitement has to be out, which is, if you look at porn right then, like all the women are making the exciting sounds which are really not happening in the reality of the bedroom.
Moritz: 1:05:16
Or they're happening in their lives happening in the reality of the bedroom or they're happening in their lives, and then it leads the man to like make some funky performance to make her sound a certain way. But really you don't need any of that stuff because for me, like maybe I'm this is getting too x, too x-rated, like I can get hard on Commando because I know my body. I know what to do with my body in order to be turned on. I know what to do with my mind in order to be turned on. So she gets to be who she is without having to like be constantly in this performance game with me.
Ellecia: 1:05:57
Yeah.
Sasha: 1:05:57
And it's so hot I like get to be who I am and it hurts so much and that I don't you know. I get to ask for what I want and I get to receive it. And I get to show up and like, when I'm sucking cock, I'm doing it for my own pleasure, I'm doing it in a way that feels good in my body, which, like if you had the opposite, like you'll never want it again after you start to learn that you can do this for your own pleasure. You know, and like I mean I mean the men if you've never received from a woman who is sucking cock for her own pleasure, I have no idea if we can say that in this podcast you might have to totally can something.
Sasha: 1:06:33
but, okay, great, wonderful Cock, okay, great, wonderful cock. Um, it's so different, it feels good in her body, right, like it's just such a different thing and you, you can, you can feel the difference, right. I mean the same for for oral sex, receiving oral sex, right, that, like, if he's doing it in a way that feels good to him, it is different, oh it is um yeah, it's also different.
Moritz: 1:06:58
It's also feels that's the thing men do know like they have a compass for when a woman is turned on and there is some truth that like it feels better when she's actually turned on, but it doesn't come through all the ways that men are trying to do, create that, force that but but it comes through being independent as a couple.
Ellecia: 1:07:19
Yeah.
Moritz: 1:07:19
Being independently motivated and ignited.
Sasha: 1:07:23
And connected to our own pleasure, separately and together.
Ellecia: 1:07:29
Exactly, that's the gold right there, totally, totally Okay. I have two more questions for you. One is if people want to follow you or work with you, how do they find you?
Sasha: 1:07:40
Yeah, so we are awakened underscore intimacy on both Instagram and Tik Tok, and, um, we have a Facebook community that's free and open to the public, called the awakened intimacy community.
Moritz: 1:07:53
And then right, we are offering right now we are ramping up for another. And then, right, we are offering right now we are ramping up for another workshop. It's a 30 day for 30 bucks, like um mini workshop that's gonna be taught live and it's basically um, it's your first taste if you desire to be part of our community, where there's actually ongoing coaching and calls at a really affordable rate.
Sasha: 1:08:20
Yeah.
Moritz: 1:08:21
Where you can learn with us, like for a long period of time, as long as you want to immerse in our stuff. Yeah and yeah. In order to sign up for that 30 bucks workshop, you have to go to our website, Kirkmanhoodcoachingcom.
Ellecia: 1:08:38
Beautiful, beautiful, okay. Second question this does not go on the main podcast. It's for the supporters of the show patreoncom slash, not monogamous, and this it's called just the tip and it's it's. Can you give us a favorite or best sex tip? You guys are amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you Thanks for having us.
Sasha: 1:09:16
This is so beautiful.
Ellecia: 1:09:21
That was Sasha Moritz sharing their tip for the just the tip. And if you missed it, go become one of my lovers or friends with benefits. Uh, at patreoncom, slash, not monogamous. By becoming one of our patreon supporters, you're going to get access to behind the scenes um bonus content that I keep aside for our community. Plus, you'll earn my personal gratitude, just like Ivy did by becoming one of my friends with benefits. Thanks for listening today. I adore you. Bye.