Unlearning Monogamy & Embracing Queer Polyamory, Episode 45
Today I am talking to Lelia Gowland, a married Southern woman with a literal white picket fence, who confronted her fears and her need for anonymity to very publicly embrace her queer and polyamorous identities and discover the beauty of deep connection and authentic self expression. You will hear us talk about how the polyamory landscape has evolved over the last decade or two, and how self acceptance of your personal identities, queer, polyamorous, non monogamous, whatever they are, can affect you.
Lelia is a writer and a speaker who centers her work on authenticity. She's written for publications like Forbes, Huffington Post, and Harper Bazaar, and she speaks to organizations and individuals about leading with authenticity to create happier, more productive lives.
💨 TLDR;
Embracing Polyamory
Coming Out as Polyamorous
Unlearning Monogamy
Finding Connection Without Labels
Embracing Identity
What Authenticity Doesn’t Look Like
Business and Polyamory
Being Gentle With Yourself
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📚 Books mentioned:
Ethical Slut, by Janet Hardy
Polysecure, Jessica Fern
Sex at Dawn, Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha
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Credits
- Host/Producer: Ellecia Paine
- Editor/Producer: Danny Walters
- Hosted on Buzzsprout
About Us
Ellecia Paine is a non-monogamy relationship coach who helps people navigate ENM (enthusiastic non-monogamy), polyamory, open relating, swinging, kink, and life in general.
Listen in to the candid conversations that give you a peek into the inner lives of other non-monogamous folks. Hear how they've overcome challenges like jealousy, insecurity, and social scrutiny. And celebrate with them as they share all the reasons it's worth it to hav
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Get on a free call with Ellecia to see how she can help you move through the challenges of jealousy, fear, anxiety, and insecurities in a way that strengthens your relationships, deepens your trust, and communication, and leaves you feeling confident.
https://elleciapainecoaching.hbportal.co/schedule/605eb4a8812d3751b4c44ccc
TRANSCRIPT:
Ellecia 00:07
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships, enthusiastic non monogamy polyamory swinging kink in our lives. You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, no poor not monogamous. Lo Hello Hello. Welcome. I am so excited to share this conversation with Lelia Gowland. You get to listen to me make a new friend. Lilia is a married Southern woman with a literal white picket fence, who confronted her fears and her need for anonymity to publicly very publicly embrace her queer and polyamorous identities and discover the beauty of deep connection and authentic self expression. Lily is a writer and a speaker who centers her work on authenticity. And she's written for a bunch of publications like Forbes, and Huffington Post and Harper Bazaar, and she speaks to organizations and individuals about leading with authenticity to create happier, more productive lives. She wrote a really great piece for Huffington Post, about being a queer woman who appears straight, who's married to a man and is really, really great. Today we're you're going to hear about how the polyamory landscape has evolved over the last decade or two, and how self acceptance of your personal identities queer polyamorous, non monogamous, whatever they are, how can you accept them deeply? And what does that do for you? This is such a good conversation. I really hope you enjoy it. If you want the behind the scenes bonus content, like just the tip. Join us on our Patreon. Become a supporter become friends with benefits or lover of Nope, we're not monogamous. And then you'll hear all the extra good bits that you're not hearing today at patreon.com/not monogamous. Join us there and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Got it? All right, cool. I am so happy that you're here today. Thank you.
Lelia 02:37
Thanks for having me. Yeah,
Ellecia 02:39
absolutely. So welcome to Nope, we're not monogamous. We're talking about not being monogamous. And I would love it if you could tell the listeners just a little bit about who you are.
Lelia 02:55
My name is Lelia Galland and I have two tracks in my work as a writer and a speaker, both of which center on authenticity. As a writer, I've written for Forbes, Huffington Post Harper's Bazaar, lots of different publications about queer identities, sexuality, and consent. And as a speaker, I say I work with organizations and people that want to lead with authenticity, to create happier, more effective teams. And how that comes together with my poly identity is really recognizing how long it's taken me to fully embrace and publicly embrace my queer and pally identities and feeling authentic and grounded in both those parts of myself.
Ellecia 03:42
Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Oh, I love that authenticity is like, that's such a hot topic and hot word, right. Um, but so Okay. Let's start with what? Because I imagine that's been quite a journey. So I'm curious. First of all, like what non monogamy, or polyamory looks like for you like what is your, like, relationship style or structure?
Lelia 04:11
Yeah, so I wrote a piece for Heathcoat called married with a toddler, I appear straight, I'm finally ready to stop hiding my identity. So my orientation is I seem like a straight monogamous mom. And the deep south. My house literally came with a white picket fence. And you know, my hands and like holding up my hand, it has like a diamond ring on it. And my like hot fist, heterosexual husband and kiddo. And so, for us, we started open. We started dating about 12 years ago. And from the moment we started, we said, you know, this is something that I know I was reading the ethical slut. I had just finished grad school and my favorite collaborator, we taught sex ed together and his gift to me was the ethical have flattened he was like, I just think you might like this, you know, fundamentally changed the course of my life. It was kind of the only game in town a decade plus ago, we didn't have Polysecure any of the other resources. And Cole and I were having these beautiful hard conversations in what would otherwise have been the honeymoon period. And I love what you've said in the past begin as you intend to go. And he leaves Yeah, like that. Read, I was like, stop everything, I need to write that down. Because for us that really influenced expectations about communication about, like my level of responsibility for my own emotions, for navigating, you know, complex situations and recognizing I'm not relying on my partner only but I've got this beautiful support system of friends and partners who can show up for me and so in our marriage, we identify as polyamorous we say we have a lifelong commitment to ourselves and one another, and, and our family and also really believe and embrace the possibility of falling in love with other people.
Ellecia 06:12
Yeah, beautiful. Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Yeah, begin as you intend to go. And that was, I mean, that was what my husband and I did as well. Like we've been together nine years, I think now, and have never been monogamous. But like went through the whole journey of unwinding monogamy and deconditioning. And becoming secure in ourselves and all the things right.
Lelia 06:36
There were some layers to unlearn. Learn always a process.
Ellecia 06:40
Yeah. Yeah. big ol onion. Mmm, hmm. Excuse me. So I imagine. Okay, tell me through through that, through that journey, beginning of relationship that way to work to where you're at now? What was the process like, of becoming more and more open with like, friends, family work, people,
Lelia 10:01
in terms of open about my open relationship? It's always a little wonky to say, because there's so many open theories. So being open about my poly identity. You know, I noticed for years, I would come out interpersonally, right, that felt safe to me, in my friend group, and my you know, my close friends all knew none of them had any experience with it, we use the term open relationship initially, that felt more comfortable. The word polyamory made me like, immediately throat construct feel like I was gonna throw out. I was like, No, I want to have recreational sex in a Marriott every three months. Like, conveniently, it was already what I was doing with an ex boyfriend. And it just didn't. That's not actually what I wanted. I wanted deep connection and a value system that aligned with this belief that we can be deeply interconnected. And my investment in outside relationships only enhances my relationship with Cole, my husband, because we have that continued mutual investment. And so, to your question, what I found was even, you know, it was really lonely at first 11 years ago, 12 years ago, like enm was not a term I had ever heard. The ethical slut was the only game in town. My I had my coffee, and Cole had it in the back of his car, his car flooded, just like a New Orleans rainstorm. And I was so mad, because I lost my highlight. So we put it in the freezer, and we migrated my highlights over to a new copy, because it was so I'm gonna have it next to me working on an hour. And it just, it felt like this is the physical embodiment of like, the only thing I have that shows that what we're doing is real and possible, because it was so incredibly lonely. And so I look at how the landscape has evolved where like we were finding partners on Craigslist, with our heads chopped off, right and like people we love dearly and are really close to who are like successful professionals and super smart and capable, wonderful people who also have this profound fear and need for anonymity because of the nature of our relationship being so taboo. And I had close friends who were really supportive, but didn't actually get it, right. Like they didn't they could relate to some of the emotions but not navigating the experience itself. Yeah. And so what I've noticed in a profound shift is I was talking with a few years ago, I was talking to friends, I'm 37 talking to friends who are in their 20s and I gave my standard talk I'd say like, oh yeah, I went on a date with someone the other night. Just for context. Cool and I are polyamorous this means we have an open marriage, we date other people and believe in the possibility of love outside of our marriage, but are really invested in one another as well. If you have any questions about that, feel free to ask me. And then I kept going. And like,
Ellecia 10:16
Man, you've got that one down pat.
Lelia 10:19
Extended more than once leads Yeah. For me, this massive evolution happened when these two women in their 20s were like, Yeah, cool. Why are you making it weird? And I was just like, Y'all, thank you. Because it was such a dramatic shift from I mean, I think about my first queer relationship with with a trans man. And we would come out and and I remember a friend who's in medicine. I said, you know, I have this partner, I love him so much. I know, you've heard me talk about him. A reality about our relationship is that he is transgender, if you have any questions about that, and I didn't have the incident. And she said, Oh, that's cool. What is that mean? And I mean, this is 1213 years ago, when trans identity wasn't something people had language for people in our circles did, but people, you know, writ large. And so I think always about that conversation with my friends. And how for years, it felt like I was on that loop with non monogamy. And with polyamory, where it was like, you know, their reaction was, Oh, I could never do that. Or like, wait, what do you do and shock? Versus like, Yeah, cool. Great. And that evolution for me and feeling deeply held in my relationships, always. But feeling like I had connections with people who understood the identity better, because I wasn't the only person they knew. Engaging in some form of non monogamy.
Ellecia 11:49
Yeah. Oh, just having like community to commiserate with and that to like, actually empathize. And to be able to say like, oh, this hard thing is happening and not have them go. Well, why would you put up with that?
Lelia 12:05
Even if they didn't say that, wondering if they're thinking it like even these super emotionally evolved lovely close friends who I adore, there's a part of me that's unlearning my own social scripts about monogamy. And I feel judged in even knowing with certainty that they are not judging me. I'm questioning like, Wait, why am I doing with this? This is so hard. And to sit with people who are like, oh, yeah, it is hard. And we're doing it anyway.
Ellecia 12:32
Yeah, yeah. I you know, it's funny, I was talking to a friend the other day, who's known that I'm polyamorous for several years, and has knows my relationships and, and I don't remember what brought it up. But all this time, she thought that anybody that I was in relationship with, was, we're all in relationship together. Like, like her, her, she just got it. She was like, her mind was blown when it clicked, that, that it wasn't monogamy plus one or plus two that we now had to, like, create this big melting pot of people that all mesh schedules and emotions and I was like, No, I have like separate relationships, just like I have separate friendships. Like same. She's like, what?
Lelia 13:28
I wonder how often that misconception is happening for me, you know, a question that that I do get asked is like, how do you make a time and of course, you know, the questions we always get. But something that I think is really interesting is you know, the idea of like bringing in a unicorn or finding a third and having this additional person enter our relationship what Cole and I really value is the the disconnect from our family life. And particularly as a parent for me feeling like I am seen not as and I have a significant caregiving responsibilities, right in my family, with my parents, with my grandmother, and so on. And so you know, sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's just like, I'm deeply connected to my family and to relate to someone and we care for. But to to relate to someone not as a granddaughter, a daughter, a mother, a wife, but to to engage with someone as Lelia Gowland as a whole human who is separate and apart from my roles, is what is among the most valuable aspects of polyamory for me, and it's deeply affirming of my queer identity, right? That's the other piece that so you know, wouldn't have gotten married hadn't been monogamous. And I'm at this phase of self knowing where, you know, Cole asked me last night he's like, do you think you're getting queerer and I He's like, I'm glad I got in early. I laughed with him about it and acknowledged like I'm making up for last time, right? Like, for so long. We're like, I just didn't have access to this. It didn't occur to me that it was an option for so much of my life. And because I was attracted to men, and it's like, cool, I'll just, you know, keep going on this is easy. Yeah. And to now be really investing in relationships with women and non binary, folks. It's incredibly freeing. And to do that, from the secure base of my marriage feels really wonderful.
Ellecia 15:39
Yes, oh, I love that. You know, my girlfriend and I did an episode A little while back where we both neither of us really identified as queer. And yet we fell in love. And we're having sex. And both were still like, No, I'm straight. Yeah, wait a minute.
Lelia 16:01
Like I. So again, I'm 37 and came of age at a time when like queer was the slur that so gay was the thing everyone said all the time, all the time. That was the insults. You know, it doesn't tend to day. And if two women made out at a party, they were drunk, trying to get attention bored or all of the above, that they were sincerely legitimately attracted to one another was just not on my radar as a possibility. Yep. And to think back to how many moments those like, I think, Ruthie, on real world, Hawaii was the first bisexual person I ever, like interacted with. And she was portrayed as this wild person with, like, addiction struggles with alcohol and this party girl. And, you know, so much of what we now know about how the real world operates and manipulates the, quote, real world. You know, I wonder how much her bisexual identity played into the trope that they created about her. And that was my first experience with someone who was attracted to multiple people. And I remember tech, one of the other people in the real world. So he was like, oh, yeah, they're just greedy. And I remember consciously thinking, and I have seen this episode one time, 20 years ago, ya know, like, 25 years ago, I still think about this often. And I think about this woman and like, what a gift in some ways, like she gave of herself to be like some of the first bisexual representation I had ever seen. Yeah. And what that ended up with for her right, she ended up a cautionary tale for me.
Ellecia 17:45
Ah, oh, that's so good.
Lelia 17:48
I hope they paid for her therapy, right? Like, I hope she's gotten beautiful therapy, and I hope that she is well. And I'm like, part of my commitment to what I identify as queer visibility and polyamory is to say, like, I want really transparent, vulnerable, funny, beautiful representations of these identities. To be more accessible, I love that you're creating that on the podcast as well.
Ellecia 18:17
Thank you. Tryin. Oh, wow. So, so what? What has that? No, I want to ask you this. I want to ask you this. What has been? What would you say has been like the hardest, or the most challenging part of, of embracing that identity? And like, openly and going like, This is who I am, right? What's been the hardest part of that?
Lelia 19:00
Yeah. So much of it centers, self acceptance, and accepting it within myself. I was teased, like lovingly by my friend, that was boy crazy, right? And that my friends needed a Gowland glossary to keep up with all of my love interests. And Gowland being my last name that I growing up. You know, never I occasionally had relationships that were like a year, but typically, they were like three to six months. And I recognize looking back, like my longest relationship prior to my husband was my high school boyfriend, and that was a year and a half. And that pattern of saying like, okay, and I love so deeply and so freely, and then inevitably, you know, it wouldn't, I wouldn't want this long term and I would see that, you know, maybe they wanted something long term. And I would just, you know, I would be like, Oh, I don't want that. Like I'm fast. needed by this new person. And I'm still very close with a lot of my former partners, but I, I didn't have language for it. I didn't understand that. And I didn't feel broken. I don't I didn't really feel as though I was struggling but I was also 26. And I wonder had I met my husband later in life had I not gotten the ethical slut at 26 how that would have felt for me because I mean, the language of polyamory just wasn't. I didn't I didn't have that language, right. It was like bigamous and polygamists associated with a very patriarchal religion. I want to know, part of like, that was right, and swingers who were like, I remember hearing adults talk about like, I heard they're Swingers, right? And it was said, with such like, intrigue and derision, it again became a cautionary tale for like, well, I don't wanna be like that. I don't want people to talk about me like that. And so,
Ellecia 20:57
and I'm intrigued.
Lelia 20:59
Like, I did remember it, right? Adults talked about a lot of things that I didn't want to be. But that one I remember, I remember where I was standing. And who it was about and who said it. Yesterday now say, like one of the hardest part and similarly with queer identity, right? Like the breadcrumbs were there, I willfully ignored them. Yeah. And I can look back and my ex boyfriend actually made the connection for me. So my first panic attack was when I realized I was attracted to one of my female friends. I was drinking in Acapulco with a boyfriend and like, woke up from a nap and was like, Oh, can I use expletives? Yep, oh, fuck, I'm attracted to my friend. And like, we were hanging out topless, sleeping the same bed like she and I, like, had a beautiful connection. She knew she was queer. And I just thought that like no synapses firing there. And I was in a monogamous my portion of a monogamous relationship. And so you know, and then Hurricane Katrina hit shortly after. And so I, you know, I'm from New Orleans, and that sort of decimated any interest in interiority, outside of recovering from a profound trauma. And then years later, when I started dating, my ex boyfriend who's transgender, at the panic attacks came back. And until recently, I had not made that connection. And he said, really, uh, you know, do you notice that like, when you're, you know, identity conflict, is when the panic attacks would come up. And I, in seeing a therapist while I was dating him, was able to name oh, that time in Acapulco, that was a panic attack. And it was only, you know, 1012 years in retrospect, of spheres in retrospect, even longer for Acapulco, that he was able to show me that. And so I would say, one of the hardest pieces for me and what's still in evolution, for me is embracing my queer identity and poly identity in myself, and like, even last night, like how fucked is this? Last night, I'm journaling or three o'clock this morning whenever it was. And it was like, well, if I'm more queer, it kind of justifies the polyamory. Like that my husband is a man and so like, I can justify being polyamorous more easily, because I'm partnering with women and non binary people. Like, that's some serious social conditioning I'm unlearning.
Ellecia 23:29
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's the, that's, that's for many people the entry point, right, we're opening up for, for exploration with, with a with particular with a particular gender or particular people, but only for that, not because we would otherwise have an open relationship only only for this.
Lelia 23:56
And then I need this pinpoint justification. That that is not it's not honest. That's not emotionally honest about why I'm polyamorous or what I crave in a deep and intimate connection with other people. I'm dating someone now who I'm just like, utterly charmed by. I asked them at three o'clock this morning. I was like, Oh, I'm going on a podcast. Is it okay, if I talk about it? And they were like, Absolutely. I love how consenting you are. My language, not theirs. But it was like, you know, we're sending each other. They're sending me poetry. And like reading it and thinking about it and writing back about it. And recognizing, like, the intimacy with someone who is socialized as a woman who like knows how to touch my hair in a way that just feels a particularly lovely way. And like, let me just be really clear like my husband does not want to read poetry with me. I have not asked him explicitly, but like he has never sent me poetry that does not seem like a thing that's really on his radar. But this partner like subscribes to a week a monthly Poetry Magazine, and it's one of their favorite things and they thought I would like it. And like, whether or not they are male or non binary, or woman is irrelevant to the fact that my life is enriched because, like, I would not seek out poetry either. But when it is, like so thoughtfully gifted to me, it allows me to tap into a writer, right, like, I love the language, and allows me to tap into something different in myself being in these outside relationships.
Ellecia 25:33
Yes, yes. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. So that's, that's it, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so if, if somebody were to ask you about, about being more authentic, and showing up in their lives more truly as who they are, what what advice would you give them?
Lelia 26:15
The element of authenticity that's been most helpful in my own journey is the recognition that being authentic is not showing up in the same way to every person every time in every situation. And I use the analogy of Mardi Gras, right from New Orleans. We're in Carnival season. And as we're recording this, and so I think of an Mardi Gras day, if I showed up in business casual that they went to give a speech, it would be very weird, and people would think I was quite odd. Yeah, if they showed up similarly, on stage to give a keynote, in a big ol hotel ballroom with chandeliers ever had with three giant googly eyes in a head drop. It would be very weird. And no one thinks then being inauthentic in either situation, because I've changed my appearance. Right? It's expected that I'm gonna show up in the scenery on parade in full costume and sequins and over the top style, right like a big old costume. In similarly when I give a speech now I bring a little more costuming into my presentations. Like what how I dress. And there's not I don't question whether I'm being inauthentic in either setting, and nor does anyone else. And so when I relate to my poly identity, I come out as queer on stage in talking about my journey of hiding of invisible identity, which I know so many people relate to. Right, one of the things that I value most about my work is when people who don't share my identities feel seen in my story. And so when I talk about my experience of hiding of feeling like I didn't count as queer, of wondering what my role was, and how to show up, I'm very transparent about my journey in queer identity, right? It is that for so long is that I didn't have a type. My past partners include a gorgeous woman in the film industry, nominally sexually sexy man who's transgender, who's an urban planner, and an FBI agent with our muscles, the size of my waist, right? Like there's not a pattern. And I like can kind of like talk about queer identity. I've got my talking points down. And when I am delivering a keynote for a corporate organization for a professional association, that is how I frame authenticity and my own experience of surrounding queer identity. And what I felt conflict about is I'm not coming out as polyamorous, but I've come out, like, half a million people read my article on having a miscarriage and falling in love with another person, for Insider, right, like concurrently falling in love with another person who was carrying. Yeah, and I'm obviously very out. If you Google me, you can see I am polyamorous. And on stage, it's a distraction. On stage, it prevents people from being able to hear the values I have, and what I want to impart about authenticity. Because then people so I love this story. I'm gonna anonymize it. But a friend who's a writer was like I was in this writing workshop. And this person was was writing this story. And they told this story that was so interesting, and it was great. And then there was this one point where they were like, and I'm saving, I'm not going to have sex until marriage. And then they kept going with the story. And it was in no way related. And the writing instructor said, Hold up. The only thing I want to I have so many follow up question, and all I'm thinking about is that you're not having sex until marriage. So you either have to write a different story, or cut that line because it's a distraction from your overall premise. And I think about that all the time with polyamory, because I you know, for so long felt so deeply ish. Not ashamed, but scared, I was scared. And, you know, like big Catholic family in the Deep South. And coming up to me, my family, you know, it was its own journey, which I'm happy to talk about the recognition that I am not being inauthentic. If I don't have three giant googly eyes on my head on stage, nor am I being inauthentic if I leave the polyamory part of my identity out.
Ellecia 30:28
I love that. Excuse me. Um, that's so good. So it's like, my ex husband used to tell me all the time that I was fake, that I was different with different people, which meant that I was fake. And, but I don't feel like I'm being fake with those people. I feel like the side of me that they bring out the side of me that they interact with is very much an authentic piece of me. It's not the side that I that I bring to you. It's different from who I am, when I'm wife and mom, and caretaker. But it's still me.
Lelia 31:11
Oh, yeah, spaciousness we can give ourselves there's so much social pressure right now, like authenticity, as you said, is a buzzword. And I fear that, particularly for people with marginalized identities, that comes with great social pressure and a lack of acknowledgement of the social risk. Yeah, yeah. And so if we don't honestly evaluate, like, what are we asking of people when we say that they should be more authentic? Who does that impact? And it impacts most people with marginalized identities, right, I think about black colleagues who are going to work after another act of police brutality, and another murder by black by police officers. Right? Like, what does being authentic mean for them, in that moment, is fundamentally different from how I, as a white person, move through that situation with colleagues like, Oh, my God, how awful, right. And I think the expectations we have, particularly in the traditional labor market, around authenticity are evolving so much because of COVID. And because we have this blending of home and professional life, and this is we've seen this in social science research. And so what I think is really cool is to think, you know, PwC, the artist formerly known as PricewaterhouseCoopers, says, you know, a key reason for the great resignation was people felt they couldn't be their true selves at work. He did this great, you know, huge analysis. And I think that's such an interesting question. And I, I feel in my work, it's really important to define what our true self mean. And acknowledge that, you know, the way I show up on stage giving a keynote is fundamentally different than the way I show up on Mardi Gras day, and I'm fine with that. Yeah.
Ellecia 33:00
Oh, I love that. So. So authenticity isn't about being completely transparent. With everything in your life with every single person that you interact with,
Lelia 33:09
that would be so exhausting.
Ellecia 33:13
Right, it's just, it's really knowing who you are, and being and sitting in that, like, solidly grounded and
Lelia 33:20
hard, the fuck enough. Especially when I'm like, my monogamy, hangover, all of my socialization is that a woman as someone who is also attracted to men, like there are layers of what I am, I'm learning. And I think back to a time when I give a speech, and you talk about my ex boyfriend, who I adore, and it's like, it's such a not big deal, right? Like, I don't even think about it. And this man approaches me after my talk and says, How does your husband feel about you talking about your ex boyfriend? And I had this moment where I was like, okay, so I have an opportunity here. Like, it was the lunch session between this hosting two sessions. So after my first before my second, and I thought about it, and on the fly, I was like, it's a distraction. He is not going to hear anything else. And it was an older man. He is not gonna hear anything else I say, for the rest of the day, he is only going to be thinking of like, and there's a weird sexualization of it, where it's like, you're only going to be thinking of me having sex with other people, which is not what I want, when I'm giving a speech. But maybe it is but not in that setting that that speech. Right. And so I think in that moment, I like sort of laughed at him. It's like, oh, I assure you he doesn't care.
Ellecia 34:33
And like have a very secure Fine.
Lelia 34:35
Fine with it. Like all the things for my husband to worry about. Let me assure you this, that I give a talk about my ex boyfriends. Like it was like one story in the hour long talk. Yeah, no, no friend, he's unfazed.
Ellecia 34:55
It would have been really great if you were like, Oh, he doesn't know But don't tell him he would be broken.
Lelia 35:07
Like how much of people's reaction to our relationship model is about their own stuff? Yeah. And how do we insulate ourselves from the intensity of that reaction? And how that can land for us and feel like judgment of us? When in my experience, it's most often about the other person.
Ellecia 35:27
Yes, yes. I was talking to a friend the other day about their they are, you know, on the journey of being more authentic and be more open about, about their, how open they are. And, and they've lost friends in in going, oh, you know, by the way, this is, you know, this is what we're doing. And their friends are like, we love you, but we can't be around you.
Lelia 35:50
And the perceived threat that comes with polyamory to a monogamous relationship I, for so long, what I heard was, Oh, I could never do that. I'd get to jealous, which we all hear. And the way the way I internalize that is a judgment. And what I've recently understood from a dear friend was, that wasn't judgment that was envy. That was a longing in me that I know, I don't have the capacity to create that lifestyle for myself. And there's a longing in me that I want it. And I think it can be it can be multifaceted. And I I like to use the analogy of Cole and, I said, we were going to get pizza. And my friend will call her Sarah, that wasn't Sara, I just have infinities there. said, Oh, I could never I can't eat pizza. And I'd be like, Oh, that's cool. Cool. and I were just going to get pizza. And they were like, I can't believe that you would suggest pizza knowing I'm lactose intolerant. You're like, dude, this has nothing. I am going to get pizza with my husband. That's like, that's all the information you have. And they're like, okay, but but I can't eat pizza. And I'm really cool, man. I don't need you to go get a salad. Yeah, you have literally any other food available to you. And I have no attachment to what you can do. Cole and I are eating pizza.
Ellecia 37:18
That is the best analogy. Holy cow. I love that.
Lelia 37:24
My gift, my gift to you and the poly community? Oh,
Ellecia 37:27
it's so good. It's so good. The other thing that I hear when people react that way is I what I hear oftentimes is that they are feeling really insecure in their own relationship. And if their partner knows that this is a possibility. This is within the realm of reality,
Lelia 37:51
then I will lose them. Yep. Potentially to you,
Ellecia 37:55
potentially to you. Their wishes, there's just so much insecurity there. And I mean, there's nothing I can do for that. I mean, unless they hire me, or something. Oh, and, and I think people get really scared that they're gonna lose people that they care about because of other people's insecurities, which then is now reflecting an insecurity that I have. Yeah. All right,
Lelia 38:24
I think about they went on a walk with a very attractive woman I'm very excited about yesterday. And she and I were talking about consent. And when, you know, I were interesting kissing someone, I'd say, Can I kiss you? Right? Like that's a very normal part of the community on a part of and that that can feel so uncomfortable for people who aren't familiar. And I think it's fascinating to consider how aligned my value system has become around consent and communication compelling. And, you know, a chapter I've just written in the book is about my mom getting very, very sick and almost dying. And me becoming functionally my memory only kid in New Orleans. So I was like, being primary caretaker. She's single. And so how much my editor pointed this out. She said, I witnessed how much the tools you've been using in polyamory and your relationship with Cole allowed you to ask for what you need it and allowed you to really build this ecosystem around you. And so when I think about consent, when I think about asking for what I need, when I think about trusting that Cole is handling every facet of our lives, right? Our kiddo was not in daycare yet. He had vasectomy that day. Oh, no. And and expected to have a fully present leveling engaged partner to, you know, support the family unit. And suddenly he was fine. Completely solo. Yeah, running three businesses, you know, he has to I have one during a pandemic. Yeah. And his wife was just like gone. And so as he navigates every facet of our life, I'm managing my mother's care, and my emotional needs, he didn't have capacity to meet them. Right? He was suddenly inundated with pressure and his own healing process and all of these things. And so I, without hesitation, or concern, or feeling slighted in any way by my husband, built the supporting unit around and had built the relationships in my friendship. I mean, it was like, I had an ex boyfriend and a guy I was dating at the time who I, who I let know about the situation, right, felt very supported, but by mostly, it was my friends. Yeah. And that that's polyamory in action. Also, because I'm looking outside of my marriage, for the support I need. I've created an ecosystem of support. And I feel whole when I am connected deeply to all of these people, rather than holding my wholeness of contingent on my relationship exclusively with my husband.
Ellecia 41:16
I love that. It is it's, it's, we've created such a we've made normal, these really insulated relationships and like the family structure within the home, with no almost no support outside no community. It, it's because we've hit a point, culturally, where it's weird to ask for help. And it's weird to ask for support unless you have like such a deep connection. You know, you have like your one friend or your siblings or you know, like, there's just like the one or two people you can ask for help. And that is one of the things that I love about polyamory is you just you build community, you build connections, whether they're sexual or romantic, or just partners of partners or friends of friends, like you have community.
Lelia 42:03
And and what I would offer is, at the time, only two of the people out of the dozen and I counted on identified as pally or open in any way. And so it really was about a mutual investment in friendship that doesn't inherently require you know, you can be monogamous and still operate that way. I think of romantic friendship, right? I think of a friend who was struggling deeply and called me and said, Can I come over for a hug and I just sat and she sat in my lap, she fell for like a foot taller than I am. But she like sat in my lap and I held her body and I pet her hair. And you know, it's not a sexual relationship in any way. And she sent me something this morning that said, like, when I leave time with you, like I feel like it is like a glowing orb in my heart. Like I feel love feeling about her. We teased that during the pandemic, I had her vaccination appointment, like the day her vaccine went active, like was the two weeks after was on my calendar as licks Sara's eyeballs. Because I'm like, I need I like need to be as close to you as a human. And I didn't actually look for eyeballs not to knock anyone down. But like, that's not what we want. But we talk about our friendship and like the deep and abiding love and mutual investment that we have in this non romantic not polyamorous relationship.
Ellecia 43:26
Yeah. Ah, I love that. It's so good. So good. Okay, I have to ask in, in being really open about your life and, and your queerness and your polyamory and just all the things. Do you ever get inappropriate or awkward or intrusive questions or comments?
Lelia 43:54
This is my biggest fear starting out. So I started my business that around one to five twice. That was that trio was 2013 however old I am. Let's say it was 26. And I recognized that I was already getting hit on pretty intensely by clients who signed my largest paycheck. And the whole framework is Cole and I were talking about open relationships and what we wanted was based on a call him Pete Rosing, Pete can't know. My husband owns two bars, right? polyamory open relationships only add to his cache as this like cool hip guy. Whereas for me I was full time consulting at the time and I worried that I wouldn't be able to fend off the advances and like you know, traveling with people and you know, navigating those dynamics when, when doing so interesting how they can defensive of him I feel at the same there's a lot of patriarchy involved in what I'm saying. But I felt I knew that I could to manage a healthy relationship and hold healthy boundaries if the person Pete knew. And what has ended up happening as I was selective sharing with, with friends, sharing with colleagues, it really hasn't. I'm very fortunate and that comes with a lot of privilege that I haven't been propositioned and inappropriately in fact, someone I very much enjoy dating was like, oh, no, I didn't, like demonstrate any interest in you because you told me years ago that you like it being polyamorous came with the risk of getting hit on. And I never wanted to breach that. And I was like, Okay, well, I've been trying to do for about six years. Like I was, I saved it all. But I think it is. So much it's like, being selective about who I've shared it with. And at this time, you know, I've not read the comments on any of my essays. I've taken my kiddo off of my social media, I don't use his name and anything that I do, and my biggest fear really is about both my biggest fears about my kiddo and my second biggest fear is about my being vocal and my polyamory affecting my capacity to provide for my family. And you know, even I'm gonna be transparently yeah, like I wrote this piece for insider that says, I literally don't remember the subject and even the title we ended up with like, but I'm polyamorous miscarried, fell in love. You know, polyamory is in the in the title, and I put that on my Instagram. But it's not on my website. It's like I linked to my health Popey. But the title of the HuffPo piece is married with a toddler and finally ready to stop hiding my identity greatly vary with the toddler, I appear straight, right? So it implies it's about queer identity until you read the full thing. And thinking about being on this podcast and promoting, Nope, we're not monogamous as a spell on my Instagram feed is does feel different and like a new layer of, of, I'm gonna be candid and languid. What it feels like in my body is threat. And what it feels like in my body is, and I've talked to clients who have paid me, you know, 10s of 1000s of dollars, right? And I've become good friends with and she said, Nope, good decision maker would not have hired you. Like off the record, obviously. But there aren't protection for us. And there aren't clear ways I could say, well, this is why I didn't get that gig. And so it still feel very tender. To be grappling with these big questions and to simultaneously say, like, what's the alternative? I'm going to be in New Orleans, a very small town by, by practical measures, especially when you're a fifth generation or when you and your parents are still here. And, and I'm like, Okay, so the parents that my kids school are gonna think I'm having an affair, and cheating on my husband and my family. Is that what I want? Because I'm not gonna live in the closet, in my day to day and people are gonna see me out to dinner with another partner. So, what's the plan? So what I've decided is like, okay, and writing this book, and, you know, to someone yesterday, I was like, Oh, I'm as good as I can be. Right? I've written about it in national publications. And I'm like, No, I still don't want to be out because I'm gonna put the Nope, we're not monogamous with vegetables and a banana on my Instagram feed. That's a different, you know, like, it's very interesting. I'm talking about polyamory and like, in you know, videos, they have to watch the video to see it. This is like, No, you will see the words right away. Yeah. And it's just, you know, I, I want to live into those values that I have about when people when it came out, I had someone who writes me from North Louisiana, which is more conservative. And she said, this is the most seen I have felt in four years, I have felt so alone. And so visibility in these identities that especially as like femme presenting, I stopped shaving in my arm, like you know, helps, but mostly seemed like a real straight mom. And I do feel like that visibility for people who wonder if they count, who are scared of a part of themselves. Whether it's queer and poly or some other element, we're gonna think about, like my multiracial friends who may be present as white and are navigating like how do I take up space in community that I want to be a part of, but maybe I don't appear to fit into and that's what motivates me through this year.
Ellecia 49:54
I was gonna as you were talking, I was gonna ask, you know, when you sit with that feeling of threat Right, like, what do you do with it? How do you how do you navigate it? But then you just brought you just answered it right? Like what what is more important? What is more important how I, how I want to move through the world? Or how I want to protect myself from what I'm scared of?
Lelia 50:18
Beautifully said, and I, even I look at the like, does it feel constricting? Or does it feel open? And what I what I told a friend is like, I've been choking on that. And when I thought about coming out, it was keep hiding. Don't share, stay safe. Like, that's what I heard in my head over and over. Yeah. And then when I came out, and this gets me every time I'm scared of how my Catholic reacts, got to, you know, septuagenarian Catholic, and from the Deep South, on my mom's side, or my dad's side. And then one on my husband's side when it was like 82. And I'm super like, love, love, love these women. And it was their reaction at the zoo. So I sent it to my aunt, who like had been in my family my whole life. And I said, Hey, this is something I want you to know about before it becomes public. Like, I love you so much and happy to answer any question. And they both responded, like, Okay, I don't totally get what you're doing, but like, we love you. And that felt really nice. And then Andrew is on my newsletter. And so she got it, because I was like debating about whether to tell her and I just like didn't have capacity to do the one on one to come out again, as I was working on it. You know, what I described as the scariest thing I've ever done voluntarily. And the night before I hit spendings, like the closest to a panic attack. I'd been in years, I hadn't had them for a long time. And who wrote to me and she's bad. She, like use my own words back to me. And she said that I love you. I'm here, and I see you. They love you just as you are. Because I had written, you know, for people who felt they still had to hide, like part of what I wanted to communicate this like, this is the decision I've made. That's right for me. And that doesn't mean the right one for you. And for those of us for whom it is still unsafe or feels unsafe to be are full self. I see you I'm here, I love you. And to be held in that love right back from, you know, my 80 something year old in Rochester, New York, just felt incredible. And when I think about, like, people ask me inappropriate questions Have I gotten hit on when I do want to be all these things. I will just say I've been so blown away by my extended community and people who I wouldn't necessarily have felt more likely to be loving and supportive. I've been endlessly so
Ellecia 53:08
I love that. I have had the same experience of being constantly surprised by people being accepting, you know, maybe not like, celebratory, but like very accepting and open and loving. And I've noticed the same thing with my clients, a lot of the work we do is around, you know, embracing our authenticity, being comfortable with who we really are, and being able to show that side to the people that we love that, you know, maybe don't know. And think about this. I don't think there's any exceptions with all of them. They have all been surprised by the acceptance that they've received and not being thrown out of the family. You know, not being stoned. And, and and sent to go die in the desert alone. Yeah.
Lelia 54:11
Yeah, let me think about so, you know, in my book I talk about another cautionary tale I remember which was a elected this is what I remembered. From the book sex at dawn, an elected official in Colorado was caught having an affair. Ultimately, he used that opportunity to come out as polyamorous with his wife and his side. What I retained from that, what were let me tell you what actually happened. I just looked it up. He was the governor of Colorado in the eighth in 1988. Came out as Poly, like blows my mind answered question. And in insects, John, it ends with you know, and he answered questions and was like, Y'all are in uncomfortable silence but like let's be real about what's happened. It was just like, beautiful. Yeah, well But I retained looking back to like 10 years ago, I read this book, I read half of it, it was too argumentative for my style. But I didn't enjoy that because I already agree with him stop yelling at me. But as they read it, you know, what I retained was absolute abject terror that I would be outed. What I retained was he didn't get reelected, it says nothing about whether he even ran for reelection or how he felt about it afterwards. It was actually a really positive telling of like, he got out if you use that chance to say my wife and I have 45 years. She knew about it all along. She She condones it, we're in a good place. Yeah, any questions, but what I retained was abject terror. And so I think for you and I, and the people who have on the podcast or clients to be when it feels, you know, bold, vulnerable and courageous and enough psychological and physical safety to be open. I think about the impact that can have. Yeah, yeah.
Ellecia 56:07
Yeah. And, like, just knowing that you're not the only one, you're not a person that's so far on the fringe, that the whole world is going to hate you. Right. Like, just knowing there's other people doing this. It's, it's, it's, it's my 15% I think of America is like, yeah, we're open or open to being open. Fine. That's a lot of people.
Lelia 56:34
And, and to see it modeled in a healthy way, one of the things I suspect you may identify with is this real resentment of people co opting enm quote, as a vehicle for gaslighting, manipulation and just general but boy, shitty behavior. Yeah. And the more that there are examples of those of us doing it in a healthy, intentional consente as a way, yeah, the less there's traction for those bad actors. Yes. And I think there are some who are doing it as a vehicle for manipulation. Like it's actively a tool they're using. And I think more people don't know how to do it in a healthy way. And are saying like, Oh, I'm just dating a lot of people on Tinder. So that means I'm enm. And there's not more intentionality behind it. And so my curiosity is about how do we, and my sense of responsibility at this point now that I am out is to share a story of a very happy, healthy, stable, monogamous marriage. We've been together 12 years, we're in a good spot, right? Like, this isn't to your point. This isn't some like fringy out there. I'm gonna be exiled from my community. I'm like, I volunteer at my kids school. I bring brownies, right, like, I'm doing lots of, quote, normal stuff. And as a femme presenting white woman with boatloads of privilege, right, like, outside of the draconian laws that govern my uterus. And you know, like, gestures everywhere. misogyny, and patriarchy. Like I have all the privilege. Yeah, yeah. And so I can share my story and use that privilege as a way to normalize, but it's actually a very healthy and beautiful relationship model, then I want to do it.
Ellecia 58:19
Absolutely. 100%. And love the way you put that. That's, that's why we're here. That's why we're here.
Lelia 58:29
I was like, I don't know each other super well, but I was like, she's gonna agree with me.
Ellecia 58:33
Yeah, yeah. 100%. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would want to share with the listeners?
Lelia 58:42
Beautiful question, thank you for posing it. In late last year, I was really struggling with polyamory. And we were in a phase where I typically like I gave up dating for Lent, in graduate school, right, like I stopped dating for 40 days, because since I was 16. I always the whole time, every moment, either was actively dating someone or crushing on someone are interested in and it took 40 days of like, I remember thinking, I want to not wonder if I'm gonna see so and so at the party and decide whether I'm not going to whether or not I'm going to shave my legs based on whether I think he's going to be there. And so I'm accustomed to having a lot of partners, a lot of interest, a lot of like new relationship energy. And maybe not even a lot of partners that like an outside relationship consistently. And after I came out, I realized I was like falling in love with my writing. And it really felt like new relationship energy like that giddy euphoria you feel you'd get to spend time with that person or think about them or write to them. And I was also struggling with what I now recognize was some pretty intense depression. And so wasn't dating. And Cole had more partners than he ever had. And it was really complex to parse. Like, am I feeling jealousy about these other women? Do I feel like I wish I had what they had, in my husband? Know? What I feel maybe envy or longing for? Is that part of myself that gets seen when I'm in these outside relationships? What I feel envy or longing for is that connection to self that can come from deep intimacy and connection with someone for whom I am not a granddaughter, daughter, mom, wife. And to see, you know, like, God, everything hurts, everything is so hard. And I'm questioning like, as I'm being very open about my poly identity, and I'm experiencing these feelings that feel like very 10 years ago for me, right? Like, I remember feeling this like perceived threat feeling about my husband going on a date, I need to unpack that for myself. And to recognize it is different. And ultimately, I made the choice for myself to get on Lexapro. And within a few days, it was truly comical, because I was like, polyamory wasn't hard. Everything was hard. And it was, you know, buying tennis shoes was like a three like Herculean task. Right? It took me three months of thinking everyday that I needed to buy tennis shoes, and I was just really struggling. And I didn't know how badly I was struggling until I was on the other side of it. Yeah. And so what I offer is that acknowledgement of polyamory as a facet of our lives. And then I was quick to make a judgment on myself as like, I'm not doing polyamory. Right. Right, when I don't believe that at all. And I believe jealousy is an important part of the process, if you coach and listening to our bodies and ourselves. And I did that. And I was like, oh, that's, that's actually not what this is. But it would have been okay, if it was, it would have been okay, if I sincerely didn't want him to engage with these other people and felt threatened and needed to consider, you know, how we redirect that energy? Yeah, yeah. And so to have the compassion for myself, that support system and my therapist and friends now, many of whom are poly, to like, be that safe place for me to explore and grapple with those big hard feelings allowed me to continue to be supportive with my partner having other partners. We had a lot of conversations about it, but I was not I was like, this is hurting, this is mine to navigate, and I want to share it with you and, and all the things that I am going to show you and cover it her name has to get off camera. So I got a Valentine in the mail from it's just don't up until September, February 14. And Cole this like was not for me. And I was like clearly it's not for me, honey, from one of my friends. And it was from one of his partners who gave me this gift with a card that says world's best metaphor. With a pin, I mean a polyamory flag behind it. And to have been through, you know, the darkest depression in my adult life and has struggled with his relationship with her but not specifically. And then feel so like, oh, we have this beautiful connection now. And it's very sweet. And like, I you know, we like send each other a little treat via my husband. He teases that I have a more romantic relationship with her than he does, like it's nonsexual and I was he was like, you talk to her more than often than I do. And I was like, Oh, just like your relationship with your mom. I'm the one who you know, the kin can work your connector and the connector and to feel like that fear that I had didn't make what I was doing wrong. It was something to listen to.
Ellecia 1:04:09
Yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing that. That is that's so good. That's relationships take up such a big portion of our lives and our thought space and our emotional energy everything right? And and I always tell people like treat yourself like a toddler before you go and break up with someone or uproot your entire life like Have you eaten? Do you need a nap? Do you need cuddles? Is your tummy? Okay? Like what is happening with your body or your base? Life needs being met? Right, which really is like that has to happen before you can be in an emotionally stable place to really logically think through things. But if you are if you haven't been sleeping and you're anxious, and you aren't eating and you'd haven't had water in three days, and now you like want to get divorced or a Uh, changed the structure of your relationship? Well, let's, let's dial it back and just take care of your body first.
Lelia 1:05:05
Yeah. And how can we be gentle with ourselves in those moments? Because yeah. Well, you didn't ask, but what I would say is like, it is inevitable. I am 12 years in. Yeah. And these moments of like, oh, that didn't feel good. Yeah. And what I loved in your conversation with Emily Otto is like, you sometimes have to get burned to know what your boundary is. Yeah. And like I can, I'm like, Oh, that was a boundary.
1:05:30
Oh, we just asked it. Let's go back. Oops.
Lelia 1:05:34
That's actually how his other partner and I connected is that was like, Oh, I'm fine with that. No, I'm not. And reconnect connecting directly with her to, to build, you know, that we weren't just communicating through Cole. As such, I've had such a sweetness. And before I was dating again, because I, you know, basically stopped feeding for quite a while for me, and my relationship with his partner, as you know, just like sweetness and felt like, like a little like, oh, like, I was excited when I got a text from her. And it didn't have it didn't have that sense of responsibility that can feel so hard to navigate in a new relationship. And it will just have its sweetness. And see that evolution has felt really good in myself and in my metamours, and other relationships.
Ellecia 1:06:28
I love it. So good. Ah, okay. Um, how can people find you?
Lelia 1:06:39
I would love for folks to connect with me, my newsletter community. So I write a personal essay every week about authenticity. This one was about Mardi Gras FOMO and my fear of missing out and and, again, tuning into myself and not excuse me what I thought I should do or what I would want to do in a vacuum, but what I actually in that moment needed. Yeah, other ones have been about like feeling really conflicted about getting Botox. And you know, my evolution in that journey, which interestingly, like people told me that I convinced them to get Botox and I was like, I was the ambivalent, this wasn't a persuasion piece. But it gave people permission to do what they wanted. Yeah, and not so much of my intention in my writing and my speeches is to hold space for people to name their own needs and to model my own evolution and journey with that and when that's intention when I haven't done that, well, I write about that, too. So my newsletter is you can go to leliagowland.com/newsletter. You can see some examples in the writing section on my website. And then I'm on Instagram @Leliagowland
Ellecia 1:07:49
I love it, and I'll put all the links
Lelia 1:07:51
not.com. That's not how Instagram works. I am. Yep.
Ellecia 1:07:55
Yeah, Instagram stuff at things. I love it. Um, okay, before we go, I have one more question for you, which is a segment that I hold aside for the supporters of the show at our on our Patreon. And it's called just the tip. And it is what is your favorite sex tip.
Lelia 1:08:31
Another aspect of my work is I have this really fun free quiz on my website, which gives you the opportunity to like take these six questions and it's kind of like a Cosmo style quiz. Do you remember how fun those were? So many? I get so many. None of them told me I was clear which you know, whatever. There
Ellecia 1:08:50
wasn't one of the answers.
Lelia 1:08:52
That was not an available response. But it's a quiz to see where you are in your own authenticity journey, and where the challenges might be. And every response I give is one that I have experienced and felt and so after you take it, you'll get a quick story from my life about how it shows up and then be a part of my newsletter community. So if that's something you can go to Leliagowland.com/quiz
Ellecia 1:09:14
Oh, I love it. I'm gonna go take it to. Thank you so so much. I appreciate you. And I love this conversation. And I definitely want to talk to you again, because this is fun.
Lelia 1:09:27
I would love that I'm in the proposal phase of my book and would absolutely love to come back as the book comes to fruition. And as you know, this is so much an evolution for all of us, I think in polyamory and open relationships become more widely. There's wider curiosity and wider understanding I love watching those of us who have been at it for a long time evolved in our own experience of it.
Ellecia 1:09:57
always evolving, always growing, always learning new things. There's like No into it.
Lelia 1:10:01
What's that and the other little such use of a thug and other fucking opportunity for growth? Yes. Yeah,
Ellecia 1:10:09
yep, yep, yep. Yep.
Lelia 1:10:13
Like Kochi, we're we're like we're just in evolution like no, it's another fucking opportunity for growth and sometimes it's one than the other and sometimes it's both. Yeah. Oh,
Ellecia 1:10:23
I love it. So good. Thank you.
Lelia 1:10:26
Thank you. I really appreciate you having me. It's been a beautiful conversation.
Ellecia 1:10:30
So good. That was Lilia gallons. Just the tip, favorite sex tip and it was really wonderful. If you want to hear it, go to patreon.com/not monogamous and become one of my lovers or friends with benefits. Bye