Reframing Jealousy as a Powerful Tool in Open Relationships with Dr. Emma Smith, EP. 109
Navigating non-monogamy can stir up some BIG emotions—especially jealousy. But what if jealousy wasn’t something to fight against... but a tool for deeper connection?
In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Emma Smith, licensed professional counselor and certified sex therapist, to talk about:
✨ How to create emotional safety plans when opening a relationship
✨ The difference between healthy boundaries and rigid rules
✨ Why jealousy isn’t the enemy—and how it can guide your growth
✨ Tips for crafting relationship agreements that actually work for you
"Boundaries are about care, they're about safety. They are about being grounded in your love and respect for another person." — Dr. Emma Smith
If you're exploring non-monogamy (or just want stronger, healthier connections), this conversation is packed with real talk and practical strategies you’ll want to come back to.
🎧 Listen now and start rewriting the rules on love, safety, and emotional connection.
👉 Connect with Dr. Emma Smith https://www.instagram.com/emmasmithphd/
👉 Get the bonus "Just the Tip" from Dr. Emma by joining us on Patreon!
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Music: Composer/Author (CA): Oscar Lindstein
STIM IPI: 572 393 237
TRANSCRIPT:
[00:00:00] Ellecia: Hey friends. Welcome back to Nope, we Are Not Monogamous, uh, the podcast where we explore non-monogamy with, you know, some nuance and curiosity and a little bit of humor. I'm Ellecia, your non monogamous relationship coach, and today's episode is such a treat. I'm joined by Dr. Emma Smith and I just recently discovered her work, but the moment I did, I was like, how have I not known about her before?
Her approach to desire and emotional safety and boundaries resonates so deeply with the way that I work, and I know immediately I had to have her on the show. Emma is a licensed professional counselor, a certified sex therapist, and a brilliant thinker when it comes to relationships, especially the ones that don't follow the traditional script.
So in this conversation, we get into how to understand your boundaries through your body. You'll see what I mean, how to regulate when your nervous system is completely freaking out, and why jealousy might actually be one of your greatest teachers. You've probably heard me mention this before, but we're talking [00:01:00] about it again because it's so, so, so important.
If you've ever struggled to say no, if you felt guilty for setting limits or if you wondered if you're even doing this whole non-monogamy thing, right, you're in the right place. Let's get into it. Enjoy. Awesome. Well, uh, amazing welcome. Thank you for coming on. Nope, we are not monogamous. I appreciate you being here.
Uh, would you tell the listeners just real quick, um, kind of who you are?
[00:01:30] Emma Smith: Yeah. So my name is Dr. Emma Smith and I am a licensed professional counselor and certified sex therapist practicing in Nashville, Tennessee.
[00:01:41] Ellecia: Amazing. Oh, you're in Tennessee. Oh, cool. You're like, it must be warm there right now. I would imagine
[00:01:48] Emma Smith: it.
We are in that weird flux where you are going to be dressed inappropriately for the weather at some point. No matter what. No matter what. [00:02:00]
[00:02:00] Ellecia: Amazing, amazing. I'm in Washington, um, state, so I'm like just outside of Seattle. And it's the same thing. It's like last week it was hailing and now it's beautiful and sunny, so
[00:02:12] Emma Smith: yes, yes.
Uh, I just put away all my sweaters and then the temperature dropped again and I was like, well, okay, we're going in in layers today, three.
[00:02:23] Ellecia: Amazing. Amazing. So, um, this morning I was checking out your website and your social media, and you have so much really amazing content. I got, I got like really excited to do this.
I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be so good. Uh, and I. I have. Okay. I have a couple of questions for you. Uh, obviously talk a lot about non-monogamy here, but what I've, I've found is that it's all just good relationship advice,
right?
[00:02:52] Ellecia: Yes. Across the board. And something I was really excited to talk to you about in the [00:03:00] realm of non-monogamy is boundaries, because that is such a huge topic and such a.
Hard topic for so many people, so many of us, one, have no idea what our boundaries are. Two, have no idea how to, how to set them without feeling guilty or weird, or like we're doing something wrong. And so I, I really was excited to ask you about your thoughts on boundaries and how you, how you help people figure out what the heck they even are.
[00:03:30] Emma Smith: Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great question because you're right, it is something that extends beyond. Ethical non-monogamy or anything like that. So, you know, for me, boundaries are really about relationship agreements. Yeah. Right. And they're about care. They're about safety. They are about being grounded in your love and respect for another person.
[00:04:00] Right. And then, so I really do believe that. When we have good boundaries, we get to show up as the best version of ourselves in our relationships because we're not worried about protecting ourselves from our partners, right? Like if things are just kind of out there and it's like, Hey, you already know there's no guessing, then it can be easier to kind of have those real and authentic, um, interactions and conversations and all across the board.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:04:31] Ellecia: In your experience, what, what is the difference between like setting a boundary and like creating a wall or a barrier?
[00:04:44] Emma Smith: Uh, I think that, so, you know, when we talk about like boundaries, a lot of people think it means like putting rules onto other people, Uhhuh, right? And, you know. I love this idea of that.
Like, no, a [00:05:00] boundary is saying like, this is what I am going to do, or this is what I'm not going to do. Right. And rules are about pointing the finger at the other person. You can't do this. You can't say this right now. Of course, the thing that a lot of my clients will say to me, and they're like, yeah, but in a relationship, like if you set a boundary, you know, that does impact me.
And I'm like. Well, yes, because you're in a relationship. That's what happens in relationships, right? So I think that, I think that the boundaries can be an ongoing conversation too, because as you know, you may have a boundary in a certain relationship, and then as you go and your relationship develops, you're like, oh, I actually don't think I need that one, um, in quite the same way.
Or, this feels different now. And so, you know, I reserve the right to say, Hey, I wasn't okay with this before. And now I am, or I was okay with something before and now I'm not. And so, you know, when I think about, [00:06:00] a lot of times we talk about orientation with regard to like attraction and sex, but I think about orientation in regards to like how you just approach anything in life.
Um, and that the boundaries kind of tell you what angle you're coming from. And when we communicate our boundaries to partners, then that kind of communicates, Hey, this is where I'm at. This is my location around this particular topic.
[00:06:24] Ellecia: Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah,
[00:06:27] Emma Smith: yeah.
[00:06:28] Ellecia: It feels like such a. Kind of like this thing that's hard to define or hard to figure out.
And like most of us just don't even know what they are until we like run smack dab into 'em and then we're like, oh, I don't like that. What's going on here? And I wonder it, you know, as you were describing the difference between like boundaries and rules, I was thinking, oh my God, that's how, that's how we're taught growing up, right?
Like, you can't do that. Don't do these things. Even if like our parent is setting a boundary, like you can't pull my hair. [00:07:00] Then, then we get in trouble, right? Like, like it, it is a rule, like, you can't pull my hair or you're gonna be in trouble. And so that's how we, we then grow up and start doing that with our partners.
Like, this is my boundary. Mm-hmm. But like, you're gonna be in trouble, Mr.
[00:07:15] Emma Smith: Right. Right. And really like, you know, if, if boundaries are set up and communicated well, I think that it's actually an invitation to say, this is how to love me. Right. I'm gonna teach you how to love me and here are my left and right lateral limits, but it really is about.
You know, if I'm in relationship with somebody, I wanna be able to love them well, and I wanna know where their edges are so that I can protect those edges and I can be mindful of those edges and not accidentally go barreling through. I'm originally from New Jersey, right? So I have barreled through plenty of things in my life.
Right? And so it is personally helpful to me if I know where your edges are.
[00:07:58] Ellecia: Yeah, [00:08:00] yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. How, how do you help people figure out. Like what their boundaries are, how they would, how to express 'em.
[00:08:10] Emma Smith: Hmm. I really love teaching people how to use their bodies.
Mm-hmm.
[00:08:15] Emma Smith: Right. And saying, um, you know, I had a, a colleague of mine who is this like incredible surrogate partner and, uh, they do this exercise with their clients where.
They have the client say yes to a whole bunch of things. Nothing happens, but they just feel how a yes feels to this whole list of things. And then they feel how a no feels, you know? And like again, nothing is happening while they're doing that. They're just practicing being asked and saying yes and no, and learning, oh, I wanted to say no, but because I'm in this exercise.
I said Yes, and I, [00:09:00] I felt that right? Uhhuh. So I felt that. So one of the ways that I teach clients about their boundaries is to listen to that inner knowing of, oh, this doesn't feel good. And maybe it's not a no never under any circumstances. Maybe it's a, this is too fast, right? So maybe there's a speed issue.
Maybe there's a. Connection issue. Yes. I would love to do that with you, and I need to feel this level of connection before I can do that. Yeah. Right. So that's one of the, I think that is probably my go-to with most that's powerful people, is to teach them how to feel that in their bodies. Yeah.
[00:09:43] Ellecia: Yeah.
That's so powerful. I find when I'm working with clients. So many people like, like troubles in non-monogamous relationships. So many of them stem from a partner saying yes when they're really a no. Right. Like they're into [00:10:00] things that they don't wanna agree to because they're scared of the fallout, or they just don't feel like they can, or they aren't even sure that it's a no for them.
They're just like, uh, sure. Do that thing. And they aren't aware of what that no feels like in their body, or how empowering it would feel to like go, no, this is a no for me. Now let's talk about all the things around it and see what is a yes. Yeah,
[00:10:22] Emma Smith: yeah,
[00:10:23] Ellecia: yeah. That's so good. I love that. Oh, yay. I love that.
That is so good. And we use that same kind of thing around learning, uh, around consent, right? Like in, in, um, sexual scenarios, parties, uh, teaching consent. We use that same kind of thing, like saying yes or no. Like, can I lick your eyeball? No. Right. Do you feel out chasing, saying no? Like, it's fine. You didn't get in trouble, you.
You weren't shamed for saying no to this thing you didn't want.
[00:10:58] Emma Smith: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:59] Ellecia: Yeah, [00:11:00] yeah,
[00:11:00] Emma Smith: yeah. But there's so many messages about who we're supposed to be in our relationships, right? Yeah. And how we're supposed to show up in our relationships.
Mm-hmm.
[00:11:11] Ellecia: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:12] Emma Smith: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:13] Ellecia: Yeah. And it's so weird because it feels like most people don't want those things, and yet we're all doing them.
[00:11:20] Emma Smith: It's so true. It is so true.
[00:11:23] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing, amazing. I'm curious, are you, are you tell me this, what is your experience with non-monogamy or what is your relationship style? Like? How, what's your lens that you see all this through?
[00:11:41] Emma Smith: Yeah. This is always interesting for me to answer, so. Let me start with, so I, I understand myself as bi in the sense that, um, I am a, as my, some of my Gen Z clients call me a geriatric millennial.
[00:12:00] So the word pan didn't exist back then, and I fought real hard to be okay with bi. Um, but like, you know, my partners, I, I choose partners like with really. All but no consideration to gender other than like, Hey, I probably do need to know that about you at some point to be able to like love and respect you.
Well, but it is like I, you know, I care about it less than their credit score and more than their eye color. Maybe I don't like, you know, it's very low. So, um, I wanna know if you like, make your dog sit at home for 12 hours at a time before you let them out. Right? Uhhuh? Like, those are the things I care about.
So, so there's, there's that piece over there. And then, um, when it comes to my orientation to relationship structures, I think, you know, like most people, I grew up in a wildly heteronormative. Um, household and [00:13:00] culture and society. I grew up Catholic. Right. You know, I mean, when my parents got divorced, like my mom would not date until she got an annulment.
Right. Like, like real. Yes. You know, and so, so I think there was a lot of that. But for me, you know, when I started like learning about different relationship structures and stuff like that, I never had like an internal, it never sounded wrong to me. I was just kind of like, oh, okay. Um, and at the same time, like I was an introvert and really shy and I was kind of nerdy and so like figuring out how to date one person, hopefully.
Its own thing. And these days, you know, I'm 42 now, right? And I'm like, I have a partner who I love, um, and I have a business I'm running. And so like when I, when I think about this, I'm like, I don't know, can I be polys saturated with one person because I'm [00:14:00] tired, Uhhuh, I'm busy and feel pulled in so many directions in.
The best ways, but also like in this idea of if I stop and think, could I show up in a meaningful way in the, like with my favorite self, right? The self that I love to bring into my relationships. Could I do that now with another person? I, I'm like, if you can figure out how to stick that in my calendar, I am open to it.
This, and. I where, like, where is, where is that person going? You know? So, so that is my very long drawn out response to like, what, where, who am I? What am I, what's my orientation? I think it's, it's not monogamous and it is not practicing anything non monogamous in a meaningful way right now because life is just.[00:15:00]
Lifeing happening. Yes. Life is just ing Yes. Right. And it's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. But like, I, I wanna be a good partner. I don't wanna be like a bad partner, you know? Like, I don't wanna be like the disconnected, distracted, tired, unfulfilled, uh, just kind of, you know, bag of rocks. Like, that's not who I wanna be.
Right.
[00:15:25] Ellecia: Yeah.
[00:15:26] Emma Smith: Yeah. I, I think more people need to hear that. Oh, good ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, polys saturated with one. Yeah.
[00:15:37] Ellecia: Yeah. I think people need to hear that like, like that it's, it's all valid at, you know, 'cause so many people are like, kind of treat monogamy and non-monogamy as like a light switch.
Like it's for on, and I'm like, actually, mm-hmm. Like you can just be how you feel. Without actively doing everything under the sun. [00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Emma Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you know, I think also as I've learned, I've spent more time like in this world and working with so many poly couples and I really, there's something about like the relationship anarchy structure that I love and, um, this permission giving to not just value my romantic.
Relationships, but also to really kind of, you know, wrap my arms around and hold dear all of these other relationships that I have. And so my life feels very full in that way, even if it's not with multiple romantic or sexual partners.
[00:16:38] Ellecia: Yeah,
[00:16:39] Emma Smith: yeah. Yeah.
[00:16:40] Ellecia: That's amazing. I've been, I've been thinking about, this has kind of been a theme that I've been thinking about a lot over the last couple of months is community and how stinking important it is.
For all of us, for all of us, with everything happening in the world, and especially for non-monogamous folks, because most of us have mostly [00:17:00] monogamous friends and family. And so there's a, a, a feeling of isolation and, and so having community, having, just knowing people that are doing things similar to you is so like, so comforting and so helpful.
And, and we definitely need to value like our friends and our. Just the, the people that are around us and where we're spending our time. Yeah. A hundred percent.
[00:17:24] Emma Smith: A hundred percent. Well, I'm so glad I make sense to you. Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:17:35] Ellecia: Okay, cool. So, so knowing that, I find that really helpful, knowing like where people are coming from.
And I've, um mm-hmm. I see that you've written a lot about like emotional integrity, uh, and I'm, I'm wondering how people who are non-monogamous, how can folks who are non-monogamous uphold their emotional, their emotional integrity while they're navigating [00:18:00] multiple partners, partnerships? Like what are the, what are the kind of the key things that that come up there?
[00:18:07] Emma Smith: Yeah, I mean, I've, I end up writing a lot about, I think presence is a big word that I use all the time, right? Yeah. And I think that, you know, one of the relationships that I often have to remind my individuals and couple and poly keel clients is about the relationship that they have with themselves, right?
And that's, you, you need time to check in, right? Like, you know. How do I feel about something while I'm running from one task to the, to the next? No. Right. That's not quality time. Right? Yeah. So I think, you know, whether that's sitting down and journaling, whether that's going for a walk, you know, um, and taking time to actually be with yourself is really important.
And asking like, [00:19:00] how do I feel about this? Or, oh. That landed funny for me. Like, let me sit with that for a minute. You know? And maybe I think that sometimes we're afraid to discover things about ourselves that we don't like.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:19:15] Emma Smith: And so when we talk about emotional integrity, like we can't just be all about the happy emotions, even with ourselves.
It has to be like, oh, I, I don't like how I showed up in that situation. That's not okay. Not even about the other person, but like, is that okay with me, how I showed up? Yeah. Right. Um, so I think that that's one, uh, one way to do it is to really spend time with yourself. Yeah. Right. And to, to have a deep conversation with yourself.
I think, again, journaling is like probably one of the more popular ways to do that, but I also think that just kind of. Going for a walk, being in nature. I love taking my dog for a [00:20:00] walk down to our like mailbox, which it's about a mile and a half, like round trip. Right. So it's a nice like 15, 20 minute walk and um, and not taking headphones, right?
Not listening to a podcast, just kind of being in the moment, being present, and then. Then kind of seeing where, where do my thoughts go, you know, and how am I feeling about things right now in just kind of this really low stakes quiet space?
[00:20:30] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It makes me think of shower. Shower thoughts, right?
Like, yes, just hanging out in the hot water, thinking all the, all the thoughts. Yes. Coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love presence and it makes, that makes me think of the time we need to integrate changes, right? When relationships are going through changes or just our life is going through changes, having the time and space to let it anchor [00:21:00] in or settle in, or just process, you have to be present with that instead of like going from one thing to the next, to the next, to the next.
[00:21:08] Emma Smith: Yes. As you're saying this, I'm thinking about a session that I had earlier this week where the person had emailed me and was like, Hey, I wanna come in and talk to you about, like, working through some stuff with, you know, um, ENM and, and I was like, yeah, absolutely fine. So they come in, we can sit down, we start talking.
And so I'm like, okay, so tell me a little bit about this. Well, my partner's going out on a date tonight. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, so typically we would like to have that conversation sooner, like, and give you some time. Um, and, uh, okay, well we're gonna introduce the concept of an emotional safety plan a little bit earlier than I normally do, but like, here we go.[00:22:00]
You know, and so, so we ended up doing that. But as you're saying this, I'm like, uh, yes, yes, please. Please take some time when you're implementing relationship changes. Yes. Yes. Give your therapist some time too.
[00:22:15] Ellecia: Uhhuh, Uhhuh, Uhhuh. Uh, you mentioned a, an emotional safety plan. I'm curious, what, what does that look like?
Like what does that look like for you? Like how do you, how do you do, how do you frame that?
[00:22:28] Emma Smith: Yeah, so I think about it as, you know. Whenever I'm talking to, whether it's a couple or an individual who comes to me and is like trying to wrap their heads around wanting to, wanting to do this. And I think, you know, consent is so important.
So like even if the people are like, I am mentally on board, right? And then it's like, but I am practically freaking out, right? Uhhuh. And so I try to frame it as in, especially when somebody has. A nesting partner or an anchor [00:23:00] partner, or they've built a life with somebody. Um, and then, and then they're trying to kind of open up.
I'm like, okay. So one is how will your partner exploring this? How will you exploring this benefit? The relationship that you have with each other?
[00:23:20] Ellecia: Right.
[00:23:21] Emma Smith: Um. And so I think centering that concept, then we build the emotional safety plan out. So it's like, okay, so, you know, one of the things I talk to people about is that, uh, while intimacy needs connection and knowing, right, um, desire and passion need mystery.
They need space. And I always kind of talk about like, you know, we like unwrapping presence, right? Um, and we like the mystery and we like the anticipation of discovering somebody. And so [00:24:00] I think when people go out and they, you know, even if somebody goes on a solo trip, right? And then they come back. Well, you don't know what they did, you know?
Mm-hmm. And then you get to sit down and you get to connect with them and learn. And so I think that sometimes I just frame it as in like, Hey, your partner's gonna go out and have this experience, and they're gonna come back and there's going to be something to discover. Right? And so, isn't that lovely?
Um, and so usually people to kind of go like, oh, okay, all right, that's good. I like that. Right? And then we kind of talk about the more practical steps, and it's like, okay, so what are you gonna do? You know? Um, so that you have something to talk about, like, because, you know, I, you could sit on the couch and be miserable and think about all the different ways that somebody is, you know.
Doing everything better than you. Right. Right. 'cause everybody like kind of catastrophizes, there's, there's this person, they are a [00:25:00] 10 in every way.
[00:25:01] Ellecia: Right.
[00:25:02] Emma Smith: They are particularly a 10 in every way that I suck. Right. Uhhuh. Like it's, uh, it's negative self-talk plus like the worst fantasy ever kind of crashing together.
Mm-hmm. It's a great way to make sure you have a miserable night. Right. It's so like in the backyard crying. Right, right. So like maybe, I mean, you can do that. Like, and people, I even give people the option of doing it. I'm like, listen, sometimes people just need to do that once, so you damn believe me when I say Right, right.
Like, just check that off the list. Um, but you know, what are you gonna do? Right? So are you, do you have an opportunity to do something that like your partner doesn't really love to do when they're home, you know? Um, or do you have the opportunity to connect with somebody else, like a friend or someone that, you know, life is busy and so you [00:26:00] may not get the opportunity to sit on a FaceTime and hang out or something like that.
Right. Um, just any, any of your various forms of self-care. The one that I really like though is if I have somebody I've been working with for a little while and we know that. One of the, the pieces, one of the pain points for them has to do with a younger part. Like I do a lot of parts work with my clients and talking about, you know, an inner child or somebody like, who's afraid right now.
Like, what's, what's the fear? You know? Well, the fear's that my partner's not gonna love me anymore. They're not gonna come home. They're not gonna, okay, so how would you talk to a kid, right? If they were scared? Right. And like, what would you try to do? You know, you would try to reassure them. Maybe your partner needs to reassure them, I am coming home.
I do love you. You know, what do I, what do we need? [00:27:00] Um, and then also thinking about, you know, if this is really important because actually part of the healing is your partner leaving. And then coming back. Right. Like that's actually the healing. There isn't a shortcut for that.
Mm-hmm.
[00:27:17] Emma Smith: Um, and so, so we're going to, we're gonna walk through this and it might be scary and it might be uncomfortable, but the pain isn't without a purpose.
[00:27:27] Ellecia: Yeah.
[00:27:28] Emma Smith: Right? The discomfort isn't without a purpose. You, you know, if you pitch a fit, um. Sometimes that happens, but like if you pitch a fit and you, and you recall your partner early from a date or something, um, you know, they may have some feelings about that. And like, I think that you can work through it.
But one of the things is that that little part doesn't get to have the return, [00:28:00] the autonomous return home. Mm-hmm.
And so.
[00:28:03] Emma Smith: That deeper healing work doesn't get to happen that time. Maybe next time. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so we just kind of go through that. So we do that. We talk about, you know, what is your, what would you like your partner to do when they come home?
Mm. You know.
[00:28:19] Emma Smith: Um, 'cause people have varying ideas, right? Shower, no shower, sleep in the same bed, don't sleep in the same bed. You know, curfew, I don't like that word, but, you know, is it, is there a certain time that the person's gonna be home? Um, are they gonna text on the way home? 'cause there's a, you know, there's a safety concern.
Like I used to practice in Washington, DC right? So. It was completely reasonable that if your partner's not home at 3:00 AM you're like, are you having a good time? Did something go wrong? Like what? You know, what's happening? And so we will, we'll talk about that and like, you know, the first time that [00:29:00] this happens for somebody when they're gonna go out and do this, and we put this emotional safety plan in place.
One of my mentors taught me this and I think it's amazing and I just, I usually ask if the partner can come in and I say. What time do you think you're gonna be home? Right. Uhhuh And please, to the absolute best of your ability, this first time I need you in the door. Like the minute that you said you were gonna be home.
Yeah. Right. Like. Please do that. I understand. I may be like cutting off, I'm gonna be asking you to cut something short or whatever because you know, sometimes you don't know how the night's gonna go and everything will, if that doesn't happen, everything will be harder.
[00:29:53] Ellecia: Yes.
[00:29:54] Emma Smith: Going forward. So like, can you please just gimme this one time?
I understand. I was [00:30:00] born two days late. I rarely show up on time. Okay. Like, I get it, but. Oh my God. Please, this one time, can you please make sure that you are home when you say that you're gonna be home? Yeah. You know? And so that's usually for my newbies, and then they're like, all right lady. Okay. It just sets the foundation of like, oh, I, I can trust this.
Yeah. It really does. Especially for Right, like new things are scary 'cause they're new. Yeah.
[00:30:31] Ellecia: Yeah. Which goes back to what we were talking about earlier with boundaries and like not saying yes if you mean no. So if you're asking them for a time, don't give a time that you really don't wanna be home at.
Right. Right. Like give a time that like actually makes sense. Right? Yes.
[00:30:50] Emma Smith: Yeah. So then you could then be home on time. Absolutely. I mean, I would rather somebody say, I'm gonna be home at 3:00 AM and come home at midnight. Yeah. Right. [00:31:00] Then say, I'm gonna be home at midnight and come in at 1205.
[00:31:03] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Like then that expectation isn't blown up and then you're like, right, I know it.
I know it. Everything is gonna fall apart.
[00:31:12] Emma Smith: Yeah. Yeah. And over time, I think people get more comfortable, right? Like, we wanna set ourselves up for success. Yeah. So. Doing that, that low hanging fruit. Like let's, yeah, like let's try to give ourselves something good to go off of, something good to build off of.
And then, I mean, then, you know, six months down the road, a year down the road, like whatever it ends up being, people are like, oh, I don't even need to do that anymore. Well, great. But you might have needed to do that in the beginning.
[00:31:40] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah. As you're talking about that, it's funny, I'm, I'm thinking about how, especially when people are first opening up these first experiences.
The one that's going out on a date is like, I, I think there's this, um, like fear or this, like, gotta grab everything I can right now because it might [00:32:00] get taken away from me. Or it might, the rug might be pulled out from under me. And so they're on this like, I'm excited, I gotta try all the things which like, no, I don't wanna come home at midnight.
I'm doing something cool, new and fun. But like, they, like, I just wanna remind them that actually. You're, you're creating this like base of safety in your, in your home life, in your relationship that you clearly care about. Yeah. And the fun is still gonna be there. You still get to have it.
[00:32:30] Emma Smith: Yes. Yes. And most of my couples, when I'm working with them and they're opening up, I'll say, you know, we're gonna do this, right?
You are gonna do this. We're gonna have the conversations. And if it doesn't go right, I'm gonna ask you. To promise each other that it doesn't immediately get shut down. Right. Because it's not fair to, to tell somebody that we're gonna try something new, but you are not allowed to make any mistakes. Yeah.
Right. So I, [00:33:00] if it's a complete and utter disaster, or if it's the best night ever, like at least wait until you come back in and then we can have a conversation.
[00:33:09] Ellecia: Yeah.
[00:33:10] Emma Smith: Right. But like, let's not ripping rugs out from under one another is just like not good for relationships writ large at all.
[00:33:18] Ellecia: Right. At all.
Yeah. At all. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. I wonder how I, if, if people feel like exploring non-monogamy, like stretching their nervous system too far, how, what, like, how do you, what do you recommend to them? How do you support them in that?
[00:33:37] Emma Smith: Hmm. Um, let me see if I understand the question. Can you say it, say it again.
[00:33:43] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. If they're, you know, they're exploring, they're, they're trying something new and they're just, you know, constantly activated, scared, worried, and it feels like too much, or like they're just, it's like, oh my God, we gotta shut this down 'cause it's too much, or it's too [00:34:00] scary. How do you, like, how, how do you help them temper that?
[00:34:05] Emma Smith: I think the first thing is to really give that person, especially that part of that person, the space that it needs to feel heard and expressed and, um, you know, respected is not the same as agreed with, right? Mm-hmm. So like, so like, yeah, like, let's understand, you know? And so it's balancing that. Trying to get the other partner to be like, okay, we're gonna be in receive mode, right?
And like, we're gonna try to regulate your nervous system so you don't go defensive. And it's usually a very slow conversation that it requires some like, okay, hang on, let's get recentered, let's get re-grounded. Um, and kind of stepping in. To that, like slowly one step at a time. Okay, tell me [00:35:00] what's going on.
What are you feeling? Where is this coming from? Does this remind you of something from before? You know? And a lot of times it's like, yeah, it's tied to this other thing. And then, you know, and so then a lot of times I'm like, do you have your own therapist, Renee? Like, because, because that part. Deserves to have the space and the care and the nurturance that it needs.
Um, and like, and we are, we're balancing, you know, when I'm a couple's therapist, right, individual therapy, um, is is one thing. 'cause I'm just aligned with that person. But when I'm working with a couple, I really am holding space for that relationship. And so I can't just be like, yep, nope, non-monogamy off the table, sorry.
Partner two, like. Yeah, here it is. Um, for me it's really about [00:36:00] giving space for that, you know, for that, um, pain to be heard and respected and then,
then revisit it, right? And say, okay, so is this really about the concept itself? Is this really about. Who the person was that they went out on a date with, you know, is there something, there Is this, so like, you know, is it, is it like a philosophical values level problem? Mm-hmm. Is it a circumstantial, I don't like this person, or this person doesn't feel safe to me?
Um, is there. You know, a lot of times I'll get people who come in who have not done a relationship agreement in any meaningful way. And so there's just so much ambiguity.
[00:36:57] Ellecia: Yeah.
[00:36:58] Emma Smith: Uh, and like, and it's [00:37:00] just the, well, I'm afraid of everything because I don't even know, I don't even know what's allowed or what's not allowed.
And I'm like, oh, well, well, there's your problem. Right? Start there. Right, right. So, and you know, like, and I think people are so surprised when I have them do a relationship agreement and when we actually walk through it and they're like, lady, like, what are you at? What do you mean? Is it okay for me to fantasize about another person when I'm taking a walk with the dog?
I'm like.
[00:37:29] Emma Smith: I mean, is this tell me. And they're like, I don't, I don't know. Like, you know, and, but we just, we just pull everything out on the table, right? Yeah. Like, we're just gonna, we're gonna talk about all of it so that you know exactly what this means. 'cause that's the last thing that we want, is for you to be using one definition and for me to be using another.
[00:37:51] Ellecia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Relationship agreements. In a relationship agreement that you, you [00:38:00] help people create? Are there like some main points that have to be hit?
[00:38:06] Emma Smith: Yeah, I mean, for like, so I think for some of them, you know, I'll start off with the like, you know, uh, flirting, um, pet names, you know, uh, fantasy.
And, and then we will get into like, you know, I like helping people say, okay, um, when, when are we going to be, you know, if we're in our home, if you live together, right? Every time you look over at your partner and they're on their phone, I promise you don't wanna be thinking about, oh, who are they texting, right?
Uhhuh. So like, are there some, you know. Tell me about that. Um, you know, how do you feel about people texting in your bedroom?
Yeah.
[00:38:59] Emma Smith: Or not, [00:39:00] right? Um, how do you feel about if you have kids, what's, what do you think about that? How, what are we, you know, what are we telling them? What are we not telling them?
You know, who's mommy going out with? For me, like. You know, is that a friend? Is that, um, a, you know, what did my mom used to say? A special friend? Uh, it's mommy's special friend. Yes. It's a special friend. Okay. So like, okay. Um, you know, or, or somebody else. Right. Um, so I think that that's one. Um, you actually, when I was listening to one of the episodes of your podcast, you had a great one, which was, you know, uh, frequency of like, you know, if we go out to a party,
right?
Yeah.
[00:39:54] Emma Smith: Um, 'cause right now, I mean, most of the time I'm talking about people going out separately, but there are people who go out together. Yeah. [00:40:00] Right. And are we gonna play together? Are we gonna play separately? What happens if, so if we have an agreement to play together, but somebody that is only interested in one of us.
Right. Yeah. Like what happens? Um, any agreement that we come to, is that for this time or is that for Forever and always. Mm-hmm. Uh, I I mean, we can get, I mean, I get granular down to specific acts if people want. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um. I think, and then there's also this other thing of like, what is going to be held in reserve.
Right?
Right.
[00:40:39] Emma Smith: Um, because a lot of times, like historically, we think about exclusive relationships. Right. And typically, and as Sarah Perel talks about this in her book, um, state of Affairs. It was that people were sexually exclusive. Well, if we are going to put sex and romance back on the [00:41:00] table for not being exclusive, is there something else that is meaningful to the two of you that we can hold and reserve and say, yes, but this is for us.
Mm-hmm.
[00:41:12] Ellecia: Right.
[00:41:13] Emma Smith: And sometimes people forget about that.
[00:41:15] Ellecia: Yeah. You know?
[00:41:17] Emma Smith: Um, maybe, maybe somebody else doesn't get to go with your partner to the hotel that you go every year for your anniversary. Like maybe that's, you know, it's like, hmm. You know, can that just be ours? Right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:33] Ellecia: Yeah. I love that. I, I really love that because a lot of people.
When they're opening up, they start really small. Right? Like, especially I know a lot of swingers like starting to swing and be like, yeah, but no kissing. And I'm like, how is kissing more intimate than putting your genitals in my mouth? Yeah, right. But then it starts expanding. Okay, well then just like no holding hands with people or no [00:42:00] anal or whatever, right?
And, and, and it's like, well, these are just. Things probably that people wanna do. So maybe make it more something that is actually unique to your relationship rather than mm-hmm. Something that most people engaging in intimate things are doing.
Right.
[00:42:22] Emma Smith: Right, right. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. And really kind of like broadening, you know, we're, if we're gonna, if we're going to broaden the playbook of what's accessible to us, then let's really broaden it and say that whatever is, you know, intimate and sacred about our relationship is not confined to the bedroom anymore, because that was the old script.
[00:42:43] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So good. So good. There's a million, a million ways that can go. Amazing.
[00:42:57] Emma Smith: There are, it's so good. I mean, I [00:43:00] just love this work so much. And truly working with poly couples and ethically non-monogamous couples has actually made me a better therapist for working with monogamous couples.
Yes, because. I mean, one of my favorite resources to give my, my monogamous couples is actually the book Poly Secure. Yes. I say that all the time. Like
[00:43:22] Ellecia: everybody should read that.
[00:43:24] Emma Smith: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Because one is that it has the, I think one of the best adult I attachment style explanations A that I ever heard.
Mm-hmm. Right. Um, and then also I think that like. She just kind of talks about, you know, relationships and even if you're not having sex with more than one partner, you probably have other people in your life who are important to you and who deserve your time and care and attention. Right. Uh, and like, can we have some language around that?
[00:43:58] Ellecia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:44:00] Yeah. Absolutely. I love that. That's, I say that all the time. I'm like, even monogamous people should read this. It's just good relationship advice.
[00:44:07] Emma Smith: It really is. It really, really is. And it gets rid of, I mean, any, any assumption that you have about what needs to be talked about in a relationship.
Like I think that, uh, just, just the, the structure of a poly relationship, it just like burns it down. It's like there can't be any assumptions we have to talk about it.
[00:44:30] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. If you could rewrite one. Like cultural, social rule about relationships, what would you replace it with?
I only have
[00:44:46] Emma Smith: one. There's so many. Okay. I know, I know I have, I have many thoughts. Um, okay. I'll do the one that I don't know that a lot of other people would talk about. Um, I would [00:45:00] rewrite. Um, jealousy as a bad emotion. I think we need to rebrand jealousy as it is actually one of my favorite emotions. Yeah.
Um, to as a therapist, right. I'm just like, oh, you're jealous. I have so much to work with. I'm like, if you come in with jealousy, I have a whole toolbox. Yeah. Um, right. So I think that's the one, because I think that. Uh, the, the script right now is I'm not allowed to be jealous. Jealous means I'm bad. Jealous means even in the, like some of the, you know, the poly world, I think, and non-monogamy world, there's this idea that like, Compersion is the gold standard.
[00:45:45] Ellecia: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:45] Emma Smith: Right? Which I'm convinced that like there's six people who experience that. Yeah. I think it's not me. Gosh, I think I've met one. I've met one so far. I, I don't know where [00:46:00] the other five are. Uh, so, but like, I think that we, but thenar, like the mythos is that if you're, if you are enlightened, right, if you have done your work.
And like Compersion is the gold standard and like jealousy is the ugly stepsister who gets locked in the basement. And you know, and we don't want to, we don't wanna talk about her. We don't want to acknowledge her because that's a you problem. And it's like, but no, no, no, no, no. Jealousy. You know? So many people have a hard time articulating what they want because they don't even know what's possible.
Yeah. Right. And so if you are jealous about something, ooh, that's your, I mean, that is part of you going like, well, but I want that.
[00:46:52] Ellecia: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:53] Emma Smith: Oh, well, isn't that good information?
[00:46:56] Ellecia: Yep. Yep. Right. And so
[00:46:59] Emma Smith: it, it [00:47:00] is like one of my favorites. It is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite emotions now.
[00:47:04] Ellecia: Same. Mm-hmm. Same.
You're speaking my language there. I actually, I have a keynote talk that is getting turned on by jealousy. Ooh.
Because it's so, it's so, first of all, just such a human freaking emotion. Right? Uh, but it's there, there's so many things underneath it, and all of the things that happen in our body are the same things that happen in our body when we're turned on. It's all about the story that you're applying to, the sensations you're experiencing.
[00:47:38] Emma Smith: Okay, so now I need to go to this talk, so please, please let us know where we can get tickets. Um, yeah. Good stuff. Oh, that's so good. I love it. So good. I love it.
[00:47:51] Ellecia: I, I have always been a very jealous person and that has been the bulk of my personal work being nomina in my life really.[00:48:00]
I love it.
[00:48:02] Emma Smith: Mm-hmm. I understand. I know, I, I understand that so much, right? Yeah. So, yeah. That's fantastic. Is that, so does that have to do with, um, like the relationship between anxiety and excitement? Like is that, is that related to that?
Yeah. Oh, okay.
[00:48:20] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's very much. When, when it hit me that like every time I was really just like gut churning, jealous, insecure, anxious, I was also like real tingly.
And when I noticed it, I was like, oh, there's like, if this, if I had a different story going, I would be really excited right now. I'd be like revving to go.
Mm-hmm.
[00:48:43] Ellecia: Like, all right, let's do the thing. But instead, I have this story that like, I'm about to be abandoned and rejected, and. I'm terrible and the worst and everybody's more beautiful and funny and funny than me and gives better blow jobs and Right.
Like all of these things. And I'm like, but also if that [00:49:00] weren't what I was thinking. Hmm.
[00:49:04] Emma Smith: That is fascinating. I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:08] Ellecia: It's a lot of fun.
[00:49:09] Emma Smith: Yeah. Okay. Oh, oh my goodness. I don't know if you have a TED Talk, but you need one now.
[00:49:17] Ellecia: Not yet, but I'm working on it.
Uh, how can people find you?
[00:49:26] Emma Smith: Yeah, so I am on Instagram, so it's um, Emma Smith, PhD, and I also have a Substack, which is Emma Smith phd.substack.com. I always mess that up, but I think I got it right. That one is called, it's my, it's my. Really, it's kind of like more of my philosophical writing about intimacy and presence and relationships and kind of doing that deeper dive.
'cause I'm a nerd and I love it, you know, and so I do that. And [00:50:00] then, um, for therapy, like if, you know, if people are in Tennessee or I'm licensed in dc, Maryland, Virginia, Texas, and Tennessee. So if they're in any of those states and they wanna work with me, then my, I'm in private practice and my practice is called soliloquy.
Um, so I can, I can provide the, the link for that. So, yeah.
[00:50:23] Ellecia: Amazing. Amazing. I'll put it all in the, in the show notes so people can find it. Um, I have one more question for you, and this goes, um, on our Patreon at patreon.com/notmonogamous. For our supporters, uh, the segment's, just the tip, and it is, what is a, uh, favorite or best sex tip that you would give?
I love that from one Scorpio to another. That is probably my [00:51:00] favorite tip that we've gotten.
[00:51:02] Emma Smith: Oh yeah. Yay. Thank
[00:51:03] Ellecia: you.
[00:51:04] Emma Smith: Yeah, so good. That's awesome.
[00:51:07] Ellecia: So good. Oh, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been fantastic. Oh, it's been so much fun. Thank you for having me. Of course, of
[00:51:18] Emma Smith: course.
[00:51:20] Ellecia: Wow, how incredible is Dr.
Emma? I am genuinely still buzzing from this conversation. I only just met her, but her work feels really aligned with mine, and that was like talking to an old friend who just kind of gets it from, you know, body-based boundaries, uh, emotional safety plans to that really beautiful reframe on jealousy.
This episode was so full of nuggets. I imagine you'll probably come back to it a few times if this resonated with you. Share it with someone else who's like navigating all of this beautiful chaos of non-monogamy, or someone who just loves good relationship wisdom. And if you wanna hear more from Dr.
Emma, don't miss her. Really juicy. Just the tip bonus [00:52:00] segment over on Patreon, patreon.com/notmonogamous. She shared a really great practice for getting in touch with your sexiest self before you get anywhere near the bedroom. It's probably one of my favorite tips that we've had so far. You can get that and support the show by heading over to Patreon, becoming one of our lovers or friends with benefits.
Every subscriber keeps us creating more and more content and spreading the love around. Right? Make sure that you, you know, hit the subscribe button wherever you're at, and, um, leave a comment or a review. Share this with a friend. Thank you so much for listening. Bye.