Rethinking “Success” in Polyamory with Jessica Morgenthaler Ep. 134
Ever been told that a relationship only “counts” if you stay in it forever?
Yeah… hard pass.
In this episode of Nope! We’re Not Monogamous, I sit down with therapist, coach, and relationship anarchist Jessica Morgenthaler to talk about what it actually means to do relationships on purpose, not just by default.
Jessica’s been practicing and teaching ethical non-monogamy for over a decade, and the way she talks about relationship design will blow your mind a little (and soothe your inner overthinker a lot).
We dig into:
→ What it means to be a solo polyamorous relationship anarchist with a nesting partner (and how to deconstruct couple’s privilege without losing connection)
→ Why assumptions, not agreements, are usually what trip us up
→ How a “relationship user manual” can transform communication, accountability, and self-awareness
→ And why success in love isn’t about forever, it’s about authenticity, gratitude, and the courage to keep showing up
→ We also talk about aging, community care, and how to stop outsourcing all your emotional needs to one person (spoiler: your friends deserve a spot on your living will).
This conversation is funny, honest, and deeply human, the kind that leaves you breathing a little deeper and feeling less alone in how messy and beautiful relationships can be.
Connect with Jessica Morgenthaler, LICSWA, CCTP-I → ICU Transformative Consulting LLC www.icutransform.org
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Music: Composer/Author (CA): Oscar Lindstein
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TRANSCRIPT:
Ellecia: [00:00:00] Hey friends. Welcome back to Nope, we're not monogamous. I'm Ellecia Paine, your non-monogamy coach, and today's episode is such a good one. I recorded it on Halloween with my little cat ears on, and I was joined by Jessica Morgenthaler who helps people do relationships differently on purpose. So Jessica's a therapist and a coach and an educator who's been living and teaching ethical non-monogamy for over a decade, kinda like myself.
Ellecia: And we met at this year's, uh, sex Positive Portland's Polytopia conference, which was so freaking much fun. We were both presenters there, and I knew immediately that she was someone I wanted to bring onto the show. In today's conversation, we talk about what it means to live as a relationship anarchist, especially when you have a nesting partner.
Ellecia: And then how to challenge the assumptions about what success in relationships really means. Jessica's also sharing what it's like to navigate hierarchy, community, self-awareness, and all the sneaky little traces of monogamous conditioning that love to follow us into polyamory. Plus, we get into the magic [00:01:00] of user manuals, the myth of the perfect partnership and why community care is just as vital as romantic love.
Ellecia: So grab your tea or your pumpkin spice latte or whatever helps your nervous system feel cozy and let's get into it. Enjoy.
Ellecia: Welcome to, Nope, we're not monogamous. Uh, and happy Halloween. I've got my little cat ears on.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: I love it.
Ellecia: Thank you. I am so happy that you're here. This is gonna be fun.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Thanks for having me.
Ellecia: Course, of course. Um, okay, here's how I wanna start, because it's, nope, we're not monogamous. Uh, I am interested in learning more about what, or learning anything actually, about what, uh, non-monogamy means for you. Like, uh, what does it look like for you? What kind of relationship style do you have? Like, [00:02:00] what do you got going on?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Gosh, thanks for asking. You know, it's ever changing, um, as we do, based off of who comes in, in and out of our lives. So, uh, I discovered polyamory, gosh, 10 plus years ago. Started from a monogamous marriage, opened it up, transitioned a number of different ways. Um, the latest transition is moving. Um. I was considered solo poly, and then I took on a nesting partner, and now I'm trying to kind of advocate what it looks like to be remaining somewhat solo poly Am relationship anarchist and have a nesting partner, and really trying to change the paradigm on what it means to have prioritization.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um. You know, and not couples [00:03:00] privilege. And, uh, so it's been really interesting navigating the assumptions, even in the polyamory community of what it means to have a nesting partner. Uh, even though
Ellecia: mm-hmm.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, my nesting partner and I have really been very clear and explicit and thoughtful on how to navigate forward and remain accessible to our other partners.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: So. Um, even though I'm relationship anarchist, which is kind of a new thing for me to try on, uh, I'm still very community based. Um,
Ellecia: yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: But just the way that I flow through and, and design my relationships is more on the anarchy side. So that's a little bit about where I'm at in this moment of polyamory.
Ellecia: Amazing. Amazing. I love that. I imagine, uh, you know, there's so much, we all have like, so much conditioning around, [00:04:00] uh, relationships, especially with a nesting partner, right? Like, oh, where's your partner? Like, just kind of this assumption that they, that you are now unit that, that is, it's really, it's hard to pull it apart and it's really cool that you are starting that way.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yes. Very different than when I started this journey.
Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, I bet, I bet. What, um, I'm curious what the, what, what is like the most, like, what's the hardest part of that? Um, um, trying to, like being a relationship, anarchist, solo, nested and, and all of that. What, what is the biggest challenge there?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Assumptions, right. Um, you know, uh, deprogramming, monogamy, thinking on needing to check in with [00:05:00] each other at every, you know, little move in terms of my nesting partner and I, um, and the hesitation for other partners to ask for anything honestly. Um, you know, I even tried like. Sharing my updated user manual, which included a bunch of the agreements that my nesting partner and I had made around accessibility to staying overnight.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And even though we have a shared bedroom, we, you know, ensure that other partners can still stay. And so, you know, we have a, um, a home office that we can pull out, you know, a cot into or whatever. For the person who is not having a, a visitor, so to speak. Um, you know, and making a lot of arrangements to maintain accessibility [00:06:00] to intimacy in the home.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And, um, and, and that is making other partners uncomfortable, uh, in a, in a way that I hadn't predicted because I was trying to be so transparent about. You know, the non-hierarchical emphasis that is so important to me. Um, very egalitarian, very, you know, talking about things from a negotiation perspective, saying, here's our agreements.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Do you have any, you know, issues with it as any of it unethical? What can we do? You know, just trying to be really transparent through the whole thing and the, the ingrained, um. Belief around couples privilege has been really interesting. I, I mean, that's where I'm guessing it's coming from, um,
Ellecia: right.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: You know, uh, is that we ha you [00:07:00] know, we just as a society have to deconstruct what it means to be a payer, to be a dyad.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Uh, so mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, with the nesting partner and I, um. Again, as an anarchist, I'm a little bit more like, do your thing. Just let me know if I need to make dinner for myself or whatever. But there's still this, you know, um, desire, uh, on their part to still check in and be like, Hey, is this okay?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And so we're kind of trying to navigate when do we actually check in and, and ask, um, more for, um. Consideration than for permission. You know, is this gonna be disruptive to you? Yeah. Like, may I, um, and so that's, that's been an interesting conversation to continue to navigate. [00:08:00]
Ellecia: Yeah, I bet. I bet. Yeah. Uh, the first thought that came to mind for me is like, if my partner was like, oh yeah, my nesting partner's gonna go sleep in the office.
Ellecia: I'd be like, oh my God, I don't wanna displace them. I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna disrupt their life. Like, oh, no. Um, and, and a lot of the, like, it's so hard to know to really know, like, are they actually okay with it?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right.
Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: It takes a lot of trust.
Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Thanks.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Try to just live, you know, talk, walk my talk, walk my talk.
Ellecia: Right, right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You have a, um, I'm sorry, what did you call it, A user manual?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so I just, uh, yeah, I don't remember where it came from. I think that there [00:09:00] was a multi Emory, you know, episode on it or something.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And, and the polyamory community here in Portland just kinda, um, took it up and I took a class, um, from somebody in the community about it who, uh, is a theater major who does a lot of creative writing and, um. Kind of took some of their prompts and just built out this whole, who am I? How do you know if we're aligned?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Here's my values, here's the things that come up for me in conflict. Here's what I need to feel care. Here's how I show care. Like, I mean, it's like nine pages. You know? You really have to be invested in wanting to be in relationship with me or read it. But, um. You know, and, and part of it's for my A DHD.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Have I talked about all the things I wanna talk about with you? Have I, you know, um, how do we determine compatibility? [00:10:00] Um, and then, yeah, just as a shared document. So every time I make an update, they all get an email going, oh God, I'm let you change now. And they all have commenting rights, right. So they can be like, actually that is not true for me.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: That is not how you show up in this relationship. Um, so, you know, it's, it's very much a living document.
Ellecia: That's amazing. How, how do people receive that? Like, like if, if, if you're like, first of all, how soon do you give that to someone?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Well, I recreated, I revamped it, um, and all my partners at the time of revamping and sending it out. Um, for the first time for that particular set of partners, uh, had been about nine months, I think it was the shortest, um, relationship. And then, um, three years and then on and off for eight years. So, [00:11:00] you know, they all kind of knew me pretty well anyway, but.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: What I was finding was that, um, I think in part because of having multiple partners, I'm like, who did I tell what to? Right? Yeah. Or I was having difficulty kind of explaining why maybe something felt different to one partner from another. And, and I just went, you know what? I'm just gonna write it all down and send it, and then they can tell me what their experience is.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, and I found that, uh. I didn't really get a lot of, uh, feedback right away, you know, I mean, maybe some spelling corrections or something. Um, but I think it's, for me, my own accountability process more than anything. And, um, and it's long and I get that it's long and people are busy. Um, so my hope is that it's just always there and that people that it is shared with can use [00:12:00] it.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: When it makes sense for them to be like, you know, what, what am I missing? Or, um, I wanna do something special. What can I do without, you know, actually having to ask Jessica what, what this is meaningful to her. So,
Ellecia: yeah. I love that. I love that so much. It's, it's really great. I think it takes a level of self-awareness that a lot of people don't have, especially in relationships, right?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah, yeah. I'm trying to build out a template to give to my clients that they can even pick and choose, you know, what is your conversation style? What is your, um, emotional processing style like, you know, helping them find some awareness around how they move the world and how they process everything. Um.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Uh, because I talked to clients so much about this already, but I never had like a template to have them have some visual [00:13:00] prompts to work with. Um, and so I'm hoping to release that by the beginning of the year to say like, here, get to know yourself a little bit and then share what feels relevant, you know, because we do piecemeal how we share about ourselves to people.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And so, um. You know, it may become a, a five session, you know, kind of class of sorts as we deep dive into the different parts of ourselves and how we show up and how do we process trauma and what are our values that help us decide, you know, what our agreements are gonna be.
Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I know it, it.
Ellecia: It, it's really fascinating to me how, um, like when we're in relationship with people, the reflections we get from different partners. Um, I had a partner point out to me recently, I didn't know this about [00:14:00] myself, but he was like, you, you don't have a problem making decisions. You have a problem making decisions when you don't like the choices that are presented.
Ellecia: He was like, so I know if you're like, uh, I don't know. I don't care that like, you just don't like the options that are there because when there's an option you like, you're like, hell yeah, let's do that. I was like, I didn't even know that about myself. That's like, that could go in a
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I have found that, um.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: It's true for myself, but also in the, the people that I work with as they open up their marriage right for the first time. There's such a gift in actually having multiple partners be a mirror to you. And I know in my own personal journey, um. If, and I wanna [00:15:00] be very clear, like my ex-husband and I are on good terms, we're good.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Co-parents, we divorced very amicably. Um, no lawyers needed, right? Like, it, it went really, really beautifully and smooth. Um, absolutely, but in the height of our distress with each other, uh, the worst was coming out because, you know, we're in. You know, chronic stress for years and years and years, and losing patients, not having the right words.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, and there were ways that my ex-husband would portray me that I had to go take to my therapist and be like, is this true? Is this really me? And had to work through a lot of parts of who I. Thought I was because of the lens that he was marrying for me on who I was, um, and, and [00:16:00] his struggles around. Um.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Owning his feelings and things like that, kind of ended up gaslighting my intuition around things and all of these pieces that if I would've left that monogamous marriage as it was, I would have been distraught, felt like I was totally unworthy of love, that I was a manipulative, self-centered, who knows whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right? Yeah. But because, yeah. Of the success and I lose, I use success loosely because I also recognize that success is an oppressive, um, concept, but because I had healthy, loving relationships happening simultaneously who were mirroring, oh, that's not my experience of you. Here's actually my experience of you.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: I left that marriage feeling more whole than I ever could have, leaving it from monogamy. [00:17:00] It gave me the space and the graciousness to walk away from that marriage, um, without a lot of resentment. And I mean, there was still anger, don't get me wrong, and there's a lot of grief or the change in the shift, um, you know, of having a dream kind of die of what you thought your life was gonna be like and who was gonna be in it.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, but it, it ended up being kind of the healthiest separation and deescalation that was possible, but it would not have been possible without the mirror of the healthier relationships that were present.
Ellecia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That makes so much sense to me. I have often said that meeting my second husband was the.
Ellecia: That's [00:18:00] like the, the tool kind of, that allowed me to see who I was outside of my first marriage and not go back. Which now I can look back and be like, oh, that was a really abusive and terrible relationship. Uh, but at the time I was like, God, I must be the worst person ever.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right.
Ellecia: And then I had someone else going, but you're not.
Ellecia: Oh, okay.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And that's the other beautiful thing that polyamory does, right. Is, is, and. Wow. Words I just feel so passionate about, like they all just wanna spill out. Uh, in my journey, at least I think that this is true for a lot of polyamorous people, is you start to learn to develop relationship according to you and that person, not according to societal's norms.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right? And so it's not just our other partners, but it's the friends and the community that we end up building too, that. Contribute to [00:19:00] our self-awareness and the mirrors that we get to be reflected in, in their eyes. Um, but we, but when we don't do community building with other polyamorous people, we still stay in that same silo of you're doing it wrong.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right. And so
Ellecia: mm-hmm.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: You know, other partners for sure. But it's, you know. Immensely important to create community, uh, within the, the open, ethical, non-monogamy realm because we need to be mirrored back our values, you know?
Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Community piece is so, so, so important. I talk about it a lot and I have a lot of people comment, like on social media.
Ellecia: Like I, how do I, I mean, we're in the Pacific Northwest, so we're, I think very, very privileged in that way. Uh, and there being lots of non-monogamous folks and communities and, and, and resources. [00:20:00] Um, but I always have people commenting like, I don't know anybody. I, how. And I'm just like, oh, go, go, go find. Go find a meetup.
Ellecia: Go find some, like here, go look for these things. You need to meet people who are also non-monogamous so that you don't feel alone and like you're the only weirdo out there.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right?
Ellecia: Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah. Even online community is better than no community.
Ellecia: Uh huh Uhhuh. Absolutely.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah.
Ellecia: Absolutely. I completely agree. Uh, yeah.
Ellecia: Um, you mentioned success earlier and, uh, one of the things I wanted to ask you was, in your experience, uh, in your work and in your own relationships, what would you say makes a non-monogamous or polyamorous relationship successful?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, I love this question and I will talk to the oppressiveness of success as a social worker, right?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Success is meant to have [00:21:00] us try to achieve somebody else's goals, just inherently. Hmm. Right? Um, and, and the opposite of of that is failure, right? Because in order to manipulate us into doing the work, they, you know, we have to have some sense of value tied to it. So I just like to name that there is no such thing as success or failure, right?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: There is. You know, our, our best attempt, our effort, um, you know, my kids wrestling coach said, it's not about the outcome, it's about the effort. Right. How much effort did we put into it? And were we authentic doing it? Right? Um, we authentic doing
Ellecia: it. Yes.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right. So for me, yeah. You know, uh, the way that I look at it, and I think, you know, some of it is the, you know, Buddhist philosophy too, of impermanence.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And this idea that the people that are in our life are in our [00:22:00] life for a reason. And um, so it really is what is the ebb and flow of that relationship? What is um, what is making sense for that, that life times snap where it is, right? And we're all learning and growing and people will learn and grow. With us.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, and some people will learn and grow and then, uh, deviate from our journey. And so, um, I really just try to have a lot of gratitude for who's here now and why are we together now. And, um, and when the time to, when the time to. Renegotiate commitment comes up. Can we [00:23:00] do so with gratitude and love and appreciation?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And when you can do that rather with, than with pain and resentment, that is what feels quote unquote successful to me.
Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that. So good, so good. Especially the, the success and failure, because I feel like, uh, there's just, we really have this big idea that like, relationships are only successful if you die in them.
Ellecia: Rich, I, that's not the trophy I want. Um, and otherwise it was a failure or a waste of time or. Uh, it didn't, you know, you know what I mean? Like, I, I just, what if we can like be grateful and appreciative for the, the things we got to experience the growth, we got to have, the connection we [00:24:00] got to have.
Ellecia: That's amazing.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right, right.
Ellecia: Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah. And I know that it's scary, you know, I hear all the time clients, um, and friends in the community saying, you know, but we're aging. I don't wanna be alone. Yeah. Right, and that's totally fair. And why does it have to be a romantic partner or a sexual partner? Why can't it be our friends?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Why are we not putting our friends on our living wills? Why are we not, you know, um, you know, putting cousins on, you know, our emergency contact list? Or, I mean, why does it have to be a romantic partner? That bears that weight. Um, and again, so I think community kind of comes back to being key. And I know it's a paradigm shift.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: I know it's super challenging and I would be lying if I said that. I don't worry about the same thing. [00:25:00] Um,
Ellecia: yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And I, I think that we worry more than we need to.
Ellecia: I completely agree. I completely agree. Especially when you consider like if that is your reason for be staying in a relationship, like maintaining a relationship that you, if that weren't a concern, you maybe wouldn't be in it, like choosing to stay in.
Ellecia: It does not guarantee that they will be there with you, like they might die before you and then you're still alone.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right, exactly.
Ellecia: Reality. Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah,
Ellecia: sorry.
Ellecia: Amazing, amazing.
Ellecia: I actually, I have a question for you. Um, because you also work with, um, with non-monogamous clients, I had someone ask me today. And I haven't had time to get back to her, but she is asking, uh, she's at the end, like at that point where NRE is new relationship, energy is fading off, and, and the little annoying things are starting to [00:26:00] show up.
Ellecia: She's like, I, I, I notice now I'm, I'm, I'm seeing the humanity in my partner and the things that previously didn't irritate me, that maybe irritate me a little bit now. How do I, how do I talk about those things? Do I talk about the big one? Only the big ones. The little ones, right? She was like, how do I navigate this part?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right.
Ellecia: Thoughts?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah. So, um, here's the thing I tell my clients. Look at why it's annoying, right? Look at, look at the why you're internally activated by it. If it's an insecurity of your own, go work on it with your therapist, right? Or your coach or whoever you're, you're using. If it's um, harm, if you feel like you're receiving harm from it, then you take it to them and say, in a very loving way, like, Hey, I'd [00:27:00] really like to talk to you about this thing that's not feeling very good to me.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right. Yeah. And then if it's a pattern of behavior, it's both people's responsibility to change what's going on. Um,
Ellecia: yeah. Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And so that's, you know, that's kind of how I look at, like, is it worth bringing up? And whose responsibility is it to, to try to make a difference in that interaction, that behavior, that tone, whatever it is.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: I mean, it's okay to say that's really good. You know, like, Hey, I'm noticing that when this thing comes up, my body becomes activated and I'm recognizing that it's a trauma response. I just want you to be aware of it because obviously in my trauma response, I may not be as [00:28:00] calm, collected, whatever, right?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: So I just need you to know where it's coming from, but you may not have a specific request tied to it if you know that it's yours. Right? So, you know, transparency in that way is still beneficial. Um, but knowing whether it's a request or a share, I think that's where, that's how I delineate, you know, how to approach it.
Ellecia: I love that. I love that. The, um, yeah, that, I love that I was, in my mind, I was thinking, I still haven't responded to her, but I was thinking like, okay, is it, is it, does it impact you? Is it a thing that actually affects you or is it a thing about their personality? Right. Is that like who they are that's annoying you or is it a thing that they're doing that's annoying you?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Oh, sure. Yeah.
Ellecia: Yeah,
Ellecia: absolutely.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And, and it's really important for people to [00:29:00] distinguish a behavior from a person, right? You know, all too often we're like, well, they're just mean. Well, are they mean or is their tone harsh? Right? Um, and the more that we can remove something as a behavior helps stave off resentment for longer, right?
Ellecia: Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um. So I really love that, that lens.
Ellecia: Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And if it's a person, if it's a personality trait, it's an incompatibility potential, right?
Ellecia: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like do you want this person to change? Are you in love with who you who, what their potential was? Who you thought they could be, right? And you're seeing now who they really are, or right.
Ellecia: Are they just like quirks? Like is it the way they're folding the towels?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right.
Ellecia: Very different things.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah. Right. [00:30:00]
Ellecia: Yeah.
Ellecia: Amazing, amazing.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Such
Ellecia: a good
Ellecia: question. Yeah, I always find it. Yeah. I always find it fascinating how different people approach those. 'cause there's so many answers, right? Like there's, there's so many ways to deal with. Relationship and people. Uh, so I always, I always like stuff like that.
Ellecia: Uh, um, okay. I, another question I have for you is, what is something that anyone can do for free to help them approach relationships in a healthier way?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: The thing that comes to mind right now, uh, and people have a love hate relationship with it is journal. You know, and it can be a written journal, it can be an audio journal, it can be, you know, more letter writing.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, it can be an outline or bullet points, right? Like we don't have to subscribe [00:31:00] to some weird way that, you know, we've been taught to journal. Um,
Ellecia: yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: But. You know, processing those emotions outside the body is super helpful for trying to distinguish what's really important. Right. And sleep on it. Like, um, I think a lot of people don't sleep on it enough.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: I know you're not supposed to go to bed mad, but, um,
Ellecia: I
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: think that's the
Ellecia: worst advice I ever got.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right. I'm
Ellecia: always mad when I'm.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: But sometimes, you know, we just really need to let it sit for a minute and see yeah, what settles. Um, but you know, trying to just intellectually think about something and never really getting it out of the body.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Can perpetuate trauma, it can lead to resentment, it can keep things confusing, right? Um, and [00:32:00] so whatever form of processing you can find comfort in, um, you know, I think getting it out of the body is really key to, to trying to get at the root of things.
Ellecia: I completely agree. Completely agree. My, I always like journal it or voice, memo it, go for a walk, move your body, get it outside of your brain.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yep.
Ellecia: And then treat yourself like a toddler. Make sure you've slept and eaten and had water.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yep, yep. Exactly.
Ellecia: Start there, then come back.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right, right. Yeah. And I think you make a really good point, right? Is like. Make sure that you're taking care of yourself. Make sure that you have had enough to, uh, to eat right.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: People are often hangry. Um, make sure that you're, you're getting a good night's [00:33:00] sleep. Um, you know, I remember seeing a Ted talk once that was kind of mind blowing and uh, and the gentleman said, um, you know, sleep is the only time your brain gets. Cleansed because it actually, um, uh, and I'm not a scientist, I didn't look this up right, but what I believe I remember him saying was like, your, the mass of your brain actually shrinks just enough to have the cerebral spinal fluid flush through it.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And it's like giving your brain a shower, right? If you're not sleeping, it can't do that. And you know, in our society with the stressors that we have, we just inherently don't get enough sleep anyway. Um, you know, but making sure that we're doing good self care allows us to show up in relationships better.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, so I think that's a really good point [00:34:00] that people take the time to do the self-care. So that they can show up as their best selves or better selves, not maybe even best, but, um, than somebody who's tired and hungry and chronically stressed without a moment of relief. Um, and joy really, mm-hmm. Is, in my opinion, the antidote to mitigating the stress of navigating relationship in general.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Whether it's a friendship of a coworker or multiple partners. If we don't combat the stressor with joy, it will feel impossible.
Ellecia: Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. Completely agree.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah.
Ellecia: I always tell people to go masturbate about it. Well, you pleasure in your life.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yes. All the pleasure. [00:35:00]
Ellecia: All the pleasure.
Ellecia: Is there anything I haven't asked you that you wanna share, uh, with listeners?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Oh gosh, where's my soapbox? Um, oh,
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: I think the thing that I don't feel like gets talked enough about is, you know, one conflict, right? What is conflict? What does that mean? Um, and that disagreements are okay, like we can find connection in conflict. Um, but even within that, you know, there's this idea that, you know, we can't make a request or if we make a request, if we receive a request.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: I think it's actually more from this lens if we receive a request. We have [00:36:00] to either agree to that request or say no, and people forget about the negotiation process. And um, you know, I learned about negotiation from Sex Positive Portland, to be honest. Um, and they have a really good rule that somebody can receive a request, but the person receiving the request is the only one to initiate.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Negotiation meaning that the person who's requesting doesn't get a no and then goes back into the conversation and says, but what about right? Once they receive the, no, that's it. Right? Um, but within the negotiation process. The goal is to either reach the agreement, which in polyamory it's not a rule, right?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: We wanna be very clear that an agreement is both people being hell. Yes. We have no people pleasers in [00:37:00] agreements. Um, or it ends up being a no. Right. Uh, but people forget that they can offer something else, right?
Ellecia: Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah. And. Any decision that you make can have a time limit to it. It doesn't have to be forever.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: And people forget that part. Yeah. And they think that once they agree to something, that it has to always be that way. And I'm like, no. Create a check-in. You know, is it are, are we gonna give it a week? Are we gonna give it a month, six months? I mean, depending on where people are at. Um. Then the final piece about that, that feels really important, and I learned this from Sex Positive Portland also, but um, I really try to hone this in for people.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: No, is not rejection. Again, as a social worker, I'm like all about systems of oppression. [00:38:00] And to think that no is a rejection. Rejection means that you're. You know, it's bad to not give in to somebody else's desire for you, right? Rejection is meant to for complacency. It's meant to like be manipulative. You know, you have to do that, or I'm going to take away my acceptance of you, right?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Is kind of where rejection came from. No is not rejection. No. Is simply that person taking care of themselves. And so as the person receiving the no, if you can view that as that person is taking care of themselves and it is actually not personal. You don't have to personalize the, no, it could have nothing to do with you.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, that helps to, to create this [00:39:00] defensiveness that we tend to experience out of the fear of rejection and makes asking a little bit more accessible because the no's not scary. And as the, yeah, as the, you know, a reforming people pleaser, right? To say no is to empower yourself to take care of yourself.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: It is not, yeah. An actual like value that you're placing on somebody else. Um, so that just feels really important I think, in how we navigate conversation about asking for what we want.
Ellecia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much. That's fantastic. Especially. While you were talking, I was thinking of how, back to like the beginning of our conversation and how, and the assumptions people make about [00:40:00] diads, about couples, about two people in relationship together.
Ellecia: That is one of them that our desires must be the same all the time. So the way we show love is by, we'll just, I'll just do everything that you want because I love you. Mm-hmm. More than I love myself, because I don't wanna, I actually don't wanna do the thing I just said yes to. Right, right. But actually, if we're like saying no to things we wanna say no to or offering negotiation, like we're giving our partner a chance to love us even more, to like, respect us and honor us.
Ellecia: Yeah.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah.
Ellecia: And, and be separate humans.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right? Right. Absolutely. And that's. And that's kind of one of the trophy things about polyamory is like, oh, you know, one person can't meet all of our needs and blah. Right. Which is true. And we kind of get stuck sometimes when we think that, um, it's scary to ask for what we want and when that person says no, that we can no longer [00:41:00] ask for it from anybody else.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: So. That's the beauty of it. Exactly.
Ellecia: Well, I guess I'll just never have what I want in my whole life.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Right.
Ellecia: Again, we're like very dramatic toddlers inside.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah.
Ellecia: Oh, it's so good. So good. Oh, this has been, um, so good. This is fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on. Uh, if people want to find you and your work, how can they do that?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Oh, great question. Um, I am a therapist at Real Life Counseling, uh, in Washington. And, um, I do coaching and workshops. Um, and conferences through ICU transformative, uh, consulting.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: [00:42:00] So email me at Jessica at icu. Just the letters ICU transform.org.
Ellecia: Amazing. Amazing. I'll put that in the, in the show notes too. Yeah, thanks. I, I should have said in the beginning, um, so that people know, like we met at, um, sex Positive, Portland's Poly Topia. Because we were both speakers there. That was so fun.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: That's right. Yeah. It was so lovely to finally get to meet you in person and, um, hear one of your talks. Yeah, and we had a great time.
Ellecia: Yeah, it was a really good weekend.
Ellecia: Uh oh, one more question. Yes. One more question for you, and this one doesn't go on the main episode. This is for supporters of the show on our Patreon at patreon.com/not monogamous.
Ellecia: Mm-hmm. And the segment is just the tip. And it's what is a, um, a favorite or a best, [00:43:00] a favorite or a best sex tip that you would give to people?
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Hmm.
Ellecia: No pressure.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: No pressure. Oh, what if I like pressure? Um,
Ellecia: you right hurry. And there it is.
Ellecia: Amazing. Thank you so
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: much. Oh my pleasure. It was such a joy to talk to you today and I really love all the work that you're doing and I really do wanna connect more. I really appreciate, you know, the offer to be on your podcast, and I also just, you know, wanna be in community with you, so. Um, you know, I know much of the business is about, you know, pushing ourselves out there so that we can make this be a living as well as a passion.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, and I just really [00:44:00] enjoy you and the fact that we are fairly close and you have a business down here and I go up there all the time 'cause I have a partner up there. Like, I really just want you to know that this was not. Receiving the offer to be on your podcast was a blessing, a very unexpected blessing, and I have a lot of gratitude for it as I, you know, am trying to expand my business reach, um, and my support reach.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Um, and it is not. Uh, I just wanna be very explicit. It is not the reason I reached out to you at all. Um, it was purely just to be a community. Thank you. And to get to know you and to be another, um, support for each other. So just as, as healers, as people doing this work. So
Ellecia: thank you.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Yeah, thank you.
Jessica Morgenthaler (she/her) - ICU Transformative Consulting: Absolutely.
Ellecia: That was so good. I loved how Jessica broke down the difference between checking in for [00:45:00] consideration versus asking for permission, and the piece about defining success by authenticity instead of longevity. That that resonated so much for me. So if you wanna learn more about Jessica's work or check out like her upcoming offerings, you can find her at ICU Transformative Consulting.
Ellecia: I just got that ICU. Uh, I'll link it in the show notes. You can click wherever that is. Seriously, go follow her. She's one of the pe the she is one of the people who's walking her talk with so much grace and so much clarity. And also if you love what we're doing here, nope, we're not monogamous and you want to help keep it going, then you can join our Patreon for as little as $3 a month at patreon.com/not monogamous.
Ellecia: You'll get access to bonus content like our just the tip segment, including Jessica's Spicy one. From this episode, you'll get behind the scenes q and as early invites to Live Hangouts. Right now, I'm sending out stickers. You can also get a mug. There's all sorts of good [00:46:00] things. Um, plus it's just one of the easiest ways to help me keep creating this, this like honest, nuanced, nervous system friendly conversations about love that doesn't fit in the box, right.
Ellecia: Uh, so again, patreon.com/not monogamous. The link's also in the show notes. I'm so grateful you're here, truly, you know, otherwise, go like things, subscribe, leave a review. Tell people how much you love it. Share this episode with someone else. I love you. Bye.