Reignite Your Dating Life: Overcoming App Burnout and Finding Your People, ep. 96
Are you tired of swiping endlessly on dating apps, feeling like you're getting nowhere? In this episode, I sit down with Julie and Yue, the dynamic duo behind the Dateable podcast and authors of "How to Be Dateable: The Essential Guide to Finding Your Person and Falling in Love." These dating experts are here to shake up your approach to modern romance, whether you're monogamous, non-monogamous, or somewhere in between.
We dive deep into why non-monogamous dating often leads to better sex, the importance of DIY-ing your relationships for ultimate happiness, and strategies to overcome dating app burnout. Plus, Julie and Yue share their game-changing insights on:
The power of defining your own relationship rules
Understanding your dating archetype and how it impacts your love life
The secret behind the 24-hour rule in dating
How to connect authentically with potential partners
Julie Krafchick & Yue Xu are active daters turned dating insiders, and top influential voices of modern dating, relationships, and connection in the digital world. They’re the authors of How To Be Dateable: The Essential Guide to Finding Your Person and Falling in Love and the co-hosts of the hit podcast Dateable, which has been named one of the top podcasts about modern dating and relationships by the New York Times, The Huffington Post, Oprah Daily, and more. They’re also the hosts and executive producers of the dating experiment show Exit Interview. Julie brings her background in human-centered design and research, while Yue shares her experience as a dating coach. Together you can find them at dateablepodcast.com and @dateablepodcast.
Ready to revolutionize your love life? Don't miss out on Julie and Yue's book, "How to Be Dateable," and take their dating archetype quiz at howtobedateable.com to uncover your unique approach to love and relationships.
00:00:00 Introduction to Non-Monogamous Dating Insights
00:03:24 DIY Relationships and Personal Growth
00:05:23 DIY Relationships and Non-Monogamous Dating
00:15:54 Overcoming Dating App Burnout
00:28:00 Authentic Connections in the Digital Age
00:54:35 Final Thoughts and Dating Predictions
TRANSCRIPT:
[00:00:00] Ellecia: Hey there, welcome back to Nope, we're not monogamous. I'm Ellecia, your non monogamous relationship coach. Let's be real. Dating these days can feel like a full time job with no benefits. You swipe, you text, you meet, and sometimes it feels like you're just running around in circles. Sound familiar? Okay. So today we're going to shake things up a little bit.
I've got two incredible guests joining me, Julie and Yue, the dynamic duo behind the dateable podcast. And the authors of How to Be Dateable, The Essential Guide to Finding Your Person and Falling in Love. These two are absolute pros when it comes to unpacking the insane world of modern dating. And trust me, they don't hold back.
So stick around so that you can hear why people say non monogamous dating leads to better sex. We'll also talk about why defining your own relationship rules, DIYing your relationships, [00:01:00] is the key to relationship happiness. And if you've been struggling with dating app burnout, we've got you covered with strategies to get your mojo back, to get the spark back, to not feel so burnt out about it.
Plus, Julie and Yue are going to share their secrets behind the 24 hour rule, why understanding your dating archetype is a game changer, and what it really means to connect with someone authentically. So, if you're, uh, navigating monogamy, non monogamy, you're just trying to figure out where you stand in the dating world, This episode is going to give you some, uh, insight.
Let's go. So, um, I want to welcome you guys to Nope, We're Not Monogamous. I really appreciate you coming on and I have not read your book front to back, but I have skimmed it thoroughly and I'm so freaking impressed.
[00:01:48] Julie: Oh,
[00:01:49] Ellecia: thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. It's really, really good.
[00:01:54] Julie: Thank you. That means so much.
[00:01:55] Ellecia: I mean, you guys already know that though.
I
[00:01:57] Julie: know. But we like
[00:01:58] Ellecia: hearing it. [00:02:00]
Yeah. I know. It's like, it's like you think your kid is cute, but it doesn't mean everybody else thinks your kid is cute. You're like, is it just me?
[00:02:09] Julie: I know we talk about the validation trap in our book, but we do want validation. So we're good with it. Yeah.
Yeah. We'll take all the validation right now, especially from you.
You're welcome.
[00:02:18] Ellecia: Um, okay. So real quick, will you tell, uh, the listeners, um, just, um, real quick, who you, who you are?
Yeah. All right. I'm Yue, co host of Datable Podcast and co author of How to Be Datable. And, uh, Julie will be soon and the two of us met, um, about a decade ago and we became fast friends and we couldn't stop talking about dating.
And so we decided to make a podcast about it and we just never stopped.
[00:02:52] Julie: And I'm Julie Krafcik, co host and co author. And yeah, Dateable, it started off as a way for us to [00:03:00] understand dating because we were both confused. We're like, why doesn't anything seem to fall into place? Like, why aren't we like living and having the love lives we always wanted?
And why are we so caught up in dating dynamics? And it really took 10 years of piecing it together to realize that like, you don't actually have to be good at dating the way we're told we're supposed to be.
[00:03:22] Ellecia: Yeah. Amazing. I love it. Um, it, it's, you know, most of, The people listening to this show are non monogamous or are moving from monogamy to non monogamy.
The thing that I think people find surprising a lot is that dating doesn't change. All the BS that you get in dating when you're like looking for one partner, same thing happens if you're looking for multiple partners or even just like looking to hook up. Like you have to deal with all the same dating issues.
I mean, it kind of makes sense. And it's just about what tools you implement. And I think in non monogamous dating, you implement a lot more of the communication tools, because you [00:04:00] have to be very clear and you have to be very intentional. But in not in traditional monogamous dating, it feels like people just kind of know, assume people like know what the lay of the land is and us make all these assumptions and that's why we get into so much confusion because we just don't communicate clearly.
[00:04:23] Ellecia: And, and they carry that over like that, that definitely carries over of like what, what, What do we like, like the assumptions that everybody's on the same page when that's like never the case.
[00:04:38] Julie: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting too. Cause like we have friends that are dating people that are in relationships, like they're kind of the third coming in or like the single person, I guess in this dynamic.
And it's an interesting dynamic for them too, because they're like, Especially if maybe they're also dating in a monogamous way. They're like, should I date the [00:05:00] same way? Or should I be different and adapt myself? So yeah, I think like, regardless of what your, I guess, configuration is, there's always this feeling of like, am I doing it right?
I think.
[00:05:13] Ellecia: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I, I, I have, uh, like 2, 700 questions for you guys.
And I, I just, cause, cause that's kind of what we're talking about. I'm curious, um, if you. What, what is the most universal, like, piece of advice that you have gathered, uh, from your research that applies to both, like, monogamous and non monogamous, um, dating and, and relationships?
Um, I actually think this piece of advice is something that [00:06:00] monogamous daters have learned from non monogamous daters is to DIY your own relationship.
And I think it's, it's funny when we hear monogamous daters being like, Oh, those non monogamous people, they know how to, they'd craft something so unique to them. Like they're not capable or able to do that, or that they're not allowed to do that. But then we look at them, we're like, Okay, there's so many different ways of doing a relationship.
We've heard of couples who are together but live apart and they choose to do that intentionally. We've heard of people who are intentionally long distance or people who have just all kinds of different ways of carrying out the relationship in a way that works for them. So ultimately, I guess what we're saying to everyone is find a way of working in a relationship that works for you, not for everybody else.
[00:06:54] Julie: And a lot of times it starts with gaining that clarity of what is it I want, not just what [00:07:00] I should want, or I think I want. A lot of times people are just like, Oh, of course I'm going to be in a relationship. That's how it works. But we encourage people, we actually have this whole exercise in our book that's called Elixr.
Defining your dating North Star. So it's figuring out like what is your why, what, what is the reason you're dating? If you took partner or partners and relationship out of the equation, like what would you actually describe? Like what are you striving for? Like what is it that you want? And then what are your core needs?
And then combine those two. And that's how you kind of date with your desires and needs at the forefront. I think that's universal, regardless how you decide to do relationships. It's, it's stay true to yourself.
[00:07:44] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably, that's. One of my, uh, you know, I'm like going through the book and that, that was a thing that really hit me is, uh, we have very similar ideas here.
I always tell people like, what is your North Star? Like, why, why are you choosing to be non monogamous or the structure that [00:08:00] you desire? Um, and the relationships that you desire, like what makes it worth going through all the stuff that you're going through to create this thing? What, and get clear on it.
What is it that you're creating? What is it that you want in your life?
Yeah. Yeah. And why is it worth doing?
[00:08:18] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. Why are you putting up with all the BS? Like, is this good? Is it worth it? And is it going to pay off in the end?
[00:08:25] Julie: I think that also helps too when like you have a string of, you know, relationship or dating kind of things that aren't going your way.
Like if you're getting ghosted or you're having someone, you know, just that is not quite the right fit in any way. If you have that North Star in mind, You're like, okay, I can see this more clearly, like the bigger picture and that this person isn't defining my dating experience. It's just, you know, en route to what I'm actually looking for.
[00:08:55] Ellecia: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, I think a lot of people get really stuck [00:09:00] on what they think relationships should look like. Um, and so I wonder what, what. What advice do you give the readers of your book, um, who are struggling to figure out what it is that they really want in like a partner or a relationship style?
How do you, how do you suggest they figure that out?
Yeah, a really great question because guess what? Most people don't know. Most people cannot answer that question and that's why we guide them through finding their why, finding their North Star. But ultimately it's about this It's about exploring with intention.
So we find a lot of daters date with intention. with emotions at the forefront, and they're very binary. So it's like, Oh, if monogamy is not working out for me, I'm going to try full on non monogamy. Like it's just shunning. And we see the same thing with dating apps. Well, these dating apps aren't working for me.
I'm going to try to meet someone in the, [00:10:00] out in the wild. But our advice is always like, you have all these tools and opportunities to explore. Why not go explore? Go figure it out for yourself. How does this sit in your body? Does this feel good? Do you like the apps to a certain extent? And then you get depleted after hour two.
Are you energized when you meet people out in public, but then you're not energized when you're out and about every night? It's just about how to, how to be more in tune with yourself and then knowing how to invest your time and energy appropriately to all the things that bring you joy and energy. We
[00:10:39] Julie: had a friend actually that I'm thinking about that was also a guest on our podcast.
And you know, she, the first episode we did with her on our podcast was just how frustrated she was with dating and she was a hetero dater at that point and, you know, monogamous dater. And she's like, I'm just so frustrated by men out there. So then she [00:11:00] actually changed the apps and started dating women.
And she had a relationship with a woman and, you know, it got really serious to the fact they were moving in and she ultimately decided, actually before even this relationship, she dated a couple, she was just like exploring, she was doing it. And, you know, ultimately she actually decided that she is indeed monogamous.
She's now back to being in a hetero relationship with a man, but I love it because she learned, like she didn't just assume that's how it is. She tested all the things and she, you know, had great experiences, even if those ultimately weren't where she went, but the idea that you can be like, okay, now I know it's not just, I'm falling into this cause it's a default.
[00:11:44] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Uh, that I feel like people kind of have this, uh, like light switch. I, you know, like I, either I'm monogamous or I'm not monogamous or I'm straight or I'm not like, everything has to be a yes or a no. And then [00:12:00] once I make it like any change, now that has to be the thing that I stick with for the rest of my life.
But really like you get to change your mind at any freaking time.
[00:12:08] Julie: Yeah, another hack too for people, if they want to figure out like what is it that I really need, we like to say that if you look at like what irks you the most and bothers you the most about dating, that's actually a really good insight into what you need.
Like for instance, if ghosting. really bothers you. That could be a sign that you really need someone that is reliable and consistent, a good communicator. Or if someone just like is, it's like pulling teeth to have a conversation with them. That means that having someone that's a good conversationalist is actually a pretty big priority to you.
So I think that's a good way to start if you're just like, I don't know what I even need. I don't know what I want.
[00:12:52] Ellecia: Yes. Yes, in all the ways. I actually, um, that was a section in your book that I really loved was where you, you put down the needs [00:13:00] and like the examples of what you might be experiencing and, and what need that might signal that you have.
I thought that was really, really good.
Yeah. And you talk about jealousy a lot on your show. And I think this is actually a really interesting topic for people to think about. If you find that you get jealous easily in relationships. Maybe the sense of safety is what you really need and it's not about keeping people contained like they have to be committed to you and then you can only be in a monogamous relationship.
But how do you create an environment of safety for yourself and with your partner? It's so different than controlling someone or possessing someone. We cannot control other people's actions and their decisions. Like you just said, Elicia, people can change their mind at any time, but at least you know what you need, and if you're not getting that, then you know that that's your, you know, that's your prerogative to leave.
[00:13:55] Ellecia: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That is, jealousy is one of the [00:14:00] big ones, um, which is so funny because it's just as common in monogamy, but people go, I could never be non monogamous, I'm jealous. And I'm like, so how do you deal with that? Now, right. Your monogamous relationship. What are you doing about that?
[00:14:16] Julie: I mean, I think the reality is most of us don't know our needs and relationships unless we've done exercises like this and work. I know for years I had no idea and then it's hard to ask for what you need because you don't even know them. Yeah. When someone's not giving it to you. So it's just, I think the first step in it.
Any relationship is to like understand what is it that is actually core to you. And that doesn't mean that your needs are going to get met a hundred percent of the time. There may be areas that you need to give and take with your partner, but at least having that basis of what's a non negotiable versus what's something you could work with is going to make it a lot easier to like find the right people for you, but also to sustain relationships.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Ellecia: Yes. Yes, that compatibility piece. So important. So, so, so important. Um, you, okay, uh, you mentioned in the book that there's like 15 types of relationships. And, uh, I think, uh, in the little, I don't, I don't know if this is in the book or not, but if you wrote, I saw it somewhere, uh, nine configurations within polyamory, um, and I loved that.
I love that there were like numbers and structures, um, So I'm curious, how do you guys advise people to figure out what dynamic suits them best?
Yeah, great question. And we want to give that example of so many different types of configurations, not to be a textbook of you got to fall into one of these, but to show you There are so many ways to have a [00:16:00] relationship, and this is just scratching the surface.
These are just configurations that other people have pioneered. Imagine what you're able to create and build with your partner. So the dynamics that we always want people to think about is, again, back to their needs. How do you want to feel in a relationship? How do you want the relationship to, to be created, to be built?
And in some ways, what do you think is the culture of the relationship? In some ways, when you are in a relationship with someone, you're basically like building a company together. So how do you want to operate? You know, and a lot of times we fall into relationships, not discussing these things. But you want to talk about like, how do you want to navigate conflict?
How do you want to celebrate? How do you want to deal with the low points? Because you know, they're going to be low points. How do you want to fight in a way that's healthy? How do you want to end your day? How do you want to start your day? There's so many questions that we don't think about. that we [00:17:00] can talk about with our partners and then create a dynamic from there.
And that's a great way to kind of test and trial some of the ways that you're like, okay, I really do love a good night text. I didn't know that before, but you know, that's a dynamic that is a non negotiable for my relationships.
[00:17:18] Julie: I think also too, there could be more mix and match. Like we were talking about before, like we see people that are just like, I need to be not non monogamous or monogamous.
Like there's a lot of in between areas. Like we've heard of people that are like, Oh yeah. Like my partner cheated on me, but we were non monogamous and it's because some emotional breach was broken. So really understanding like what parts are negotiables versus areas that you're like, Actually, this is area that maybe it is better for me to be non monogamous in, in this area.
Like, I want to uphold these types of values.
[00:17:54] Ellecia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Creating a custom, custom [00:18:00] relationships.
Yeah.
[00:18:01] Ellecia: Which is what we should all be doing.
Knowing it's dynamic, your relationship, even if you created it today, is going to look a little different tomorrow and in a year from now. And so it's a great way to get yourself in the mindset that everything's fluid. Nothing is permanent. Let's just keep iterating on what this could look like so it can benefit everybody involved.
Yeah,
[00:18:25] Julie: it's interesting because like when we like Yue and I knew each other in San Francisco, where there's a huge non monogamy scene, like we went to sex parties that we covered on our podcast. And I remember Yue, you saying like, there's so much freedom in this that I don't feel like I need to be confined to doing relationships in the way I thought.
But then we hear on the other side that with all that freedom, sometimes there's confusion of like, okay, now what? There's all these options. How do I make sense of them? So I think that's what we're really trying to do with this book is be like, okay, like this [00:19:00] is a gift that we have. Like, we don't want to be back in the day where we're like following the rules and like all these like terrible dating advice, like really to not set us up well at all, or maybe even having The types of relationships that our parents and grandparents had where, especially as women, that we were not considered equals and all of that.
So no one wants to go back there. But I do think right now we're at this stage where it's just a little confusing. So like, how do we actually empower people to look at this as an asset and Give some sort of framework. And when we say framework, it's not rules, but it's more of like the structure, like we were talking about of the gaining clarity and, you know, all of that and moving forward that way that it doesn't feel so overwhelming.
[00:19:46] Ellecia: Yeah. I, um, I got to see Esther Perel speak, uh, last year in Seattle. And one of the things that I really loved is she said that like, you know, in the past, like we knew what. You know, [00:20:00] what came next, right? You find someone, you fall in love, you get married. Like we knew what the steps were. We didn't have a lot of options.
And one of the, you know, like one of the pros of that is we knew what we were supposed to do. And now we have so much freedom and so many options that we don't. It's not a, there's no prescription for what we're supposed to do next. And we're literally creating it right now. Like us, we're, we're creating it.
[00:20:26] Julie: Yeah. There's so much beauty of that, but like, also, I think that is scary for a lot of people of just like, okay, now what, what do I do? Where does this go?
The anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like on one hand, we have, we're empowered to make choices. And then on the other hand, we are scared of the other people we're dealing with who are empowered to make their choices.
And you see it in all aspects of life. It's not just dating, but look at jobs. Who stays at a company for [00:21:00] 10, 15, 20 years anymore? Because we all feel like, well, our employer is not loyal to us. Why should we be in, you know, loyal to our employers? Same thing with relationships because there's so much choice.
A lot of us feel uneasy and unsettled in the fact that even the, even marriage doesn't mean that you can be fully committed to someone for life. Nothing actually guarantees a commitment anymore. And I think that is why we're, there's jealousy. We're so on edge that what there's so much anxiety around dating because we're constantly trying to guess if the other person's going to change their mind or they're going to change direction.
[00:21:40] Ellecia: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I really love that in your book, you talk a lot about, um, really building yourself up. Mm hmm. Right. Because that's ultimately what you have to do.
[00:21:53] Julie: Yeah. I mean, that's a secure in yourself. When we first started this podcast, we thought it would be like all stories of, you [00:22:00] know, people that met and fell in love and dated.
And the more and more we did it, we were like, actually, it's about the relationship with yourself and how you come. Because also too, what we were talking about earlier, like if you don't know your needs and you're not coming with the mentality of like, of course you're going to like be a partner to people you meet, don't get me wrong.
But you're also like, I need to do what's best for me. And not just like wait by the phone or do something like that isn't authentic to who I am.
[00:22:29] Ellecia: Absolutely. Um, okay. Could you share? One of the more, uh, like inspiring or unexpected success stories that you have heard from daters who used the, like, like the principles in your book?
Yeah, we have a few. So there's. One guy that I'm thinking of, Julie, and he was, we love [00:23:00] this example because this guy is so likable.
From the instant we met him, we're like, this guy is so likable, but he just could not get past second or third dates. He had no problems getting matches. He had no problems getting first dates, but. Women were just not connecting with him and we would get on these calls with him and we're like, what, what could it be?
There's just something like, even Julie and I felt like, we're not really getting to know you. And this one time, a friend came on the Zoom call with us. And so, you know, he was talking to us and the friend popped in the background. And. He became this totally different person, like so relaxed and funny and just throwing up, throwing out all these inside jokes.
And we're like, where has this guy been? And it goes back to this principle of like authenticity. And we talk about authenticity as it's related to vulnerability in our book. But how do we look at these as not buzzwords, but also something that [00:24:00] you embody? How do you embody the person that you are with your friends?
as you are on your dates. So this is what really inspired our showing up chapter is your date actually starts before you even get on that date. It's your energy, the, the personality you're bringing, who you're, who you're willing to reveal to the person you're dating. And a lot of times we bring our date selves, we bring this performative circus with us.
And that's what he was doing with these calls with us. He thought he had to be a certain way, but guess what? If you're a certain way, you're going to attract a certain person. And then eventually you're going to have to reveal your authentic self anyway. And that's when that person may bounce. So might as well scare away the wrong people right away so that you're only attracting the right people into your universe.
[00:24:52] Ellecia: Yes.
Yes. A hundred percent.
[00:24:55] Julie: I'm so glad you asked this question too, because this actually was a huge basis [00:25:00] for our book because we've been doing this podcast now for a decade. We've talked to thousands of daters in our like communities through, you know, Facebook groups and Instagram. And we had like a private community for a while over the pandemic.
So we really got to know certain daters and we were able to see ones that really fell into this, like, dating is the worst, it's terrible, there's no good people out there, like that whole, like, negative spiral. And then we saw another subset that was really using dating as a way to grow and to, you know, figure out what it was that, like, almost the training wheels for a relationship too, and to really get a lot of value out of dating and saw it as an enjoyable experience.
And we were like, what is that? What is the difference between these two groups? And we also reflected on our lives, and we were both once in that period of just like confusion and, you know, just, Like, why are we doing [00:26:00] this? Is this worth it? All of that. And then how did we get out? So like seeing that dichotomy was really important.
I think the big theme was dating with your needs at the forefront and then also like looking at it as a growth opportunity. And not getting so attached to the outcome of every single date and how you want things to be, but using it to be like, okay, this is, I'm going to explore, I'm going to learn what works and what doesn't, and you could have an intention of what you want to get out of dating and your relationships, but it's okay if not every person fits that intention too.
Like it's being attached. It's not being attached to the outcome while staying intentional.
[00:26:40] Ellecia: Yes. Yes. I love that. That's so good. That's so good. I actually, I have a coaching client who, um, is dating, dating, dating, doing lots of dating. Um, Non monogamously, but like figuring out how to one, connect with people that, that she [00:27:00] enjoys, enjoy going on dates, not get like caught up in that like attachment wound, anxiety spiral that can happen of like, Oh, they didn't text me back.
Or they ghosted like all of the drama that can happen. And like, okay, what, how do I, and it's really cool to watch the like personal growth of. Uh, I turned down this guy because of this and I went on a date with this lady and I, you know, like Here's all the pros. Here's all the cons and like watching that growth is I love it so much.
Well, those are data points, and we don't do that for our own love lives. We don't take data of what's working for me and what's not working for me. And that's why in our book, we have this framework that helps you collect these data points to inform the decisions that you make. And a lot of times, these data points come from the people you go on dates with.
That's why we've got to collect them. Go on dates to get that feedback, to get that feedback for ourselves too, but also [00:28:00] use that opportunity to relate to all kinds of different people so you know what works for you.
[00:28:07] Ellecia: Absolutely. Absolutely. I know. It's so fun because I, uh, you know, I, I was married for 13 years monogamously and then I got divorced and I was like, well, I'm just going to be a big old slut because I don't want to get married again.
And, uh, then I fell in love a few months later and, uh, was not monogamous again, but went through all of that. But I found, I learned so many things about myself, right? Like, Oh, I actually really only want to be, um, engaging with people that I have good text conversations with. Cause I don't have the bandwidth for multiple, like lots of in person dates.
Cause I had little kids at the time. Um, you know, and I had a business, like all these things going on. I was like, I need someone who can text me regularly. I want someone who can sext. I want, you know, like all of these things that I was like. And don't leave me hanging and wondering, like, when is the next time I'm going to hear from you?
Because that makes my [00:29:00] anxiety rise. And well, I'd rather just not do that. Like all of those data points, like you were talking about, and then you can take them and actually find people that are compatible.
[00:29:09] Julie: And when we say like, get all the data points, that doesn't mean that dating is a numbers game. We actually feel strongly that it's not necessarily, like in terms of feeling like you have to go on all these dates with people that might be wildly incompatible.
Of course, there's always going to be a time that you need to learn what works for you. So maybe there is a period of your life that you are going on tons and tons of dates, but that doesn't mean that needs to be forever. In fact, sometimes once you do have that understanding of yourself that you are talking about, of course, Like, actually this behavior, it's a no go for me.
We really think less is more sometimes that you're able to kind of weed people out again back to like, don't be afraid to scare away the wrong people. Like if someone really is making you feel a certain way and you know, that's not how you jive like, It's, it's good. [00:30:00] It's filtering them out for you. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:30:04] Ellecia: Uh, I'm curious about your own, like your personal experiences, um, that you guys had with dating and what your biggest, uh, personal takeaways were. Oh, this is the juiciest
part because of course. While writing this book, we also had to go through some life experiences too. So we've been doing the podcast for almost 10 years.
A lot has happened, but Julie and I were single for most of the beginning of the podcast. And then we were alternating relationships, basically. I'm in a relationship, Julie's single. And then we switched, like kind of switched off and on. And during writing this book in the beginning, I was Towards the, I was towards like year four of a relationship and then Julie was, just had moved in with her partner.
So we were both kind of like on a trajectory of really to the next step in our relationships. And [00:31:00] Right in the middle of writing the book, I found out my partner had been cheating on me. And so ended that relationship at almost five years and they were
[00:31:08] Julie: monogamous. Yeah. And
they were, yes, we were monogamous.
Yeah, there was definitely a, yes, definitely was not a good way to end the relationship, but it was kind of a blessing in disguise because We were able to then look at the book from so many different points of view. While we were, you know, we were able to look at it from someone who's been in a relationship, now I was able to look at it from someone who's newly out of a relationship, getting back into dating.
And so it was actually kind of a great way to just, to even test some of our concepts, which all helped me not only get over that breakup, but really thrive in my next chapter of dating. So I was able to meet someone, not looking, but really attracting someone within [00:32:00] five months of that breakup. I did not expect it to be so soon, but fell in love very quickly and then have had this very intentional, communicative, communicative relationship that I don't put pressure on the outcome or the ending of, but I put a lot of priority and emphasis on the growth of, of myself and our relationship.
[00:32:28] Ellecia: I love that. I mean, I don't like the first part, but I like the second part.
[00:32:35] Julie: The rise up story. Yeah. I think another big piece too, is that we actually have this thing in our book called the dating archetype. So there's a quiz that you can take and there's five archetypes or, and most people are a combination of many.
And why we did this is because over the years of doing Datable, we really saw like different approaches to dating and how people, you know, what were, what were, [00:33:00] what were some of their biggest strengths, but also maybe what.
So I think part of it was that, you know, with dating advice, there's a lot of like generic advice. That's not always one size fits all. So we wanted to make it really tailored to, you know, your, your needs. Archetype and kind of some of those patterns that you have. So for me, I think one of the things that was really interesting, I'm a dreamer achiever.
Those are my two combo archetypes and you kind of infer what some of these mean, but like with the dreamer, it was the person that always got ahead of themselves, sometimes actually fantasizing more than living in reality. So many great qualities. Of course, you know, like with the right partner, you give all, you are really loving and caring and all the stuff, and then with the Achiever, it was like always on to the next milestone, again, positive, you're, you know, you know what you want and go after it, but it's hard to say present sometimes.
So what I [00:34:00] learned, I think, really came through while writing this too and reflecting on the past is I had this habit of really staying in these situationships or non reciprocal relationships. I mean, even if they define, even if we had like defined it, it wasn't truly the type of partnership I wanted and I would stay for years in these because I was like, Well, it's going to work.
Love conquers all. It's all going to work out. I was very much in that mode and you can see how the Achiever in me was like, I got to keep going. You know, we've gone this far. We're going to keep doing it even though it wasn't necessarily the right partner. So that was a huge revelation for me to like drop that and to like be more aware of it when I was dating.
So before I met my current fiance, we got engaged recently, been together for like a little over three years. Coming on four years soon. And in that last period of dating, though, I was so, I showed up so differently than I had before, because it was, again, my needs at the forefront. So there [00:35:00] was an example of this guy I was talking to that I really, like, thought there was something here and, you know, talking every day.
And then all of a sudden he just couldn't make time to even like meet up at all. We actually never even met in person. It was all like, This conversation and I was getting ahead of myself being like, I think there's something here, but then I'm like, this guy can't even meet for an hour till I get coffee.
Like, is this what I want? No, absolutely not. And I think old me would have tried to like push up that mountain still as I built this idea and vision where the new me was like, okay, he's not prioritizing me. This isn't what I want. I'm going to move on. And it was, It wasn't like a confrontational thing. It was just like, okay, so what's going to happen.
And then I met my partner like a month later that I never had a question that with, so it really did shift. And I think a lot of that came into the book.
[00:35:53] Ellecia: Yes. Yes. I love the dating archetypes and I love how, um, in the different, uh, [00:36:00] chapters you bring that back in, like, remember what your dating archetype is.
When you're looking at this information and how, how it relates. I loved that. Uh, I definitely am a dreamer.
[00:36:12] Julie: You're like, yep, I resonate with that one. Like in what
[00:36:15] Ellecia: ways? Give us some examples. Um, which, and I'll tell you, I've definitely learned a lot from it. Um, but really seeing the potential in people and in what the relationship could be rather than what it actually is, right?
Reading into what they say or do and how, and reading it in a way that go, like spins in the direction of what I want, rather than just listening to the actual words that were said or the actual behaviors that are present and going, Oh, but. This could be perfect if we just, you know, have that next date or just, I get it.[00:37:00]
[00:37:00] Julie: I was the same way.
Uh huh. Uh huh. Totally, totally. But the world needs dreamers. And I think that's why we wanted to, we wanted to make it very clear that there's no good or bad archetype. Everybody is probably one or two, a few of these across the board. archetype. But they're all good at, you know, we're all, they're all authentically who you are.
It's not like, oh, this one's good or this one's bad. But just like the movie Inside Out, I think about this a lot. You can't be Joy all the time, you know? And just like a dreamer, you, Being dreamer all the time does make you, uh, come across obstacles that may be standing your way. And then it's good for us to shed some light on what those obstacles could be.
But the world needs dreamers. I can't, I can't emphasize this enough. If there were no dreamers in this world, there wouldn't be love. There wouldn't be this belief in love. And then people may not even get into love forward relationships.
[00:37:57] Julie: You have to be discerning. I think that's the part [00:38:00] where I was like, just giving it to everyone kind of thing, you know, people that didn't deserve it.
Well, wait, what, what is your archetype? Yeah, I'm Maverick and Maverick is uber independent, has a strong sense of self, someone who has unrelenting standards for herself and her partners. And I think what gets in the way of a maverick is I run. I am a runner at the first sight of anything that threatens my independence.
So that could be a conflict, that could be a tough conversations that we're having. And for years I ran away from people without getting deeper with them. I didn't want to show my authentic, kind of vulnerable, weaker self. Quote, unquote, right? And so that really prevented me from getting into real relationships.
So one thing I've learned as a Maverick is that the Maverick tendencies will always be there. I will always have [00:39:00] this wanting to run, but now my question is always a pause of where are you running to? Where's the direction you're running to? Are you running away from your partner or running towards your partner?
So you can still run, but I think it's, it's just now changing the direction.
[00:39:16] Julie: Yeah. But that also is why it's important to like, look at your archetype and think about your behavior too, because I think the dreamer and maverick, I mean, they're also different in different ways, but like for the maverick, sometimes being with that we attitude is difficult.
It's more about me mentality, but for the dreamer, you're almost like rushing the we. So I think like I was giving advice to like a friend of mine. I'm like, I don't know if I would it. Given the same advice to someone else. I was giving her advice to just kind of go all in, in a relationship because she's a thinker, she's someone that, you know, sometimes doesn't take that leap of faith because they're at a Dallas paralysis.
And I'm like, look, you're never going to know until you try it. You got to just give this person a [00:40:00] chance to go all in, do it for a month. And if it doesn't work out, you can move on. And I think the advice changes based on. What, how you're showing up and your like way of doing things. So we never love to give people hard, fast rules and advice anywhere, but it's more of like, how do you look at it through this lens in this framework we've provided?
[00:40:23] Ellecia: That's beautiful. I love that. The same applies, uh, you know, people will come to me with questions about non-monogamy opening their relationships. Mm-hmm . You know, the choices that they should make. And I'm like, God, there's no, like, there's no one right way or one right answer. Like, there's so many factors and so much nuance like.
[00:40:45] Julie: Tell me more! Right, it's like what works for me might not work for you, because we're not wired the same way.
[00:40:53] Ellecia: Yeah, totally. Totally. Amazing. Um. Excuse me. I am [00:41:00] curious if you guys have any predictions for, uh, dating trends or shifts over the next, uh, you know, decade.
[00:41:11] Julie: Oh, I love it. Oh, wow.
[00:41:12] Ellecia: Next decade. Well, you've been doing
this for like a
[00:41:15] Ellecia: decade,
so what's coming next?
Right. I mean, when we started this podcast, online dating had just kind of became ubiquitous. So I think now we're looking for another disruption in the industry. And you'll see a lot of failed new dating apps coming in the scene because it's almost like nobody wants that anymore. You know, we don't need, we don't need another streaming service like Netflix.
It's the same thing. It's like, this is not new, but there is this, I think the only way for this, for this, Culture to be disrupted is that it's, it has to do with us. And so it's harder for us to make that prediction right now because people need to read the book and, and commit to some of the changes and also [00:42:00] taking ownership of their own, own actions to change the dating scene.
So one of the major trends we'll, we'll be seeing as more of this DIY relationships, people are going to be kind of exploring what this could mean. I think the, um, Marriage and the traditional committed structures will come into question even more in the next 10 years as Gen Z takes over and they're kind of like, okay, what could be another structure that is about commitment, but not so much in this marriage form because that could come into question.
And I think the third prediction that I would have in my head is that people are now going to implement all of the. Research that they've done in the past decade about themselves, like the, you know, personality tests, attachment theory, uh, love languages is all the tests and quizzes and assessments they've taken the last 10 years.
They're actually going to put it into [00:43:00] practice. So there'll be a really interesting, cause we're going to have a lot more enlightened daters in the dating scene. And what that could be, could be really intentional dating.
[00:43:11] Julie: God, I hope so. I hope so too. I think just to add on like one thing about dating apps specifically is like, you know, Tinder came out 2012.
That's when it started. There haven't been that many shifts fundamentally to the way they operate. Like, of course, they've gotten facelifts over the year, all of that. But like the swipe, or just like judging off a photo, all of that has been kind of static for a while. And I think there is this revolt that's happening.
And I think a lot of it's pent up from the pandemic too, that people, that was like the only way. And. There's, let's be honest, a lot, I'm pro dating apps. I bet my partner had a data gap, but I hear people struggle and pain. And I think the way we're using dating apps today, when we're [00:44:00] spending more time, like looking at photos and having these endless combos that go nowhere.
Of course, you're going to feel drained by it. And we're also all on like our phones all the time. So it just feels like, Oh, another place to spend time on my phone. And Gen Z is a generation that grew up like with. a tablet in front of them, right? And like always being on the internet. So I think we are going to see a swing.
It's interesting because we actually did an interview with an AI dating app founder, and they actually shut down because I think we're still not there yet. I think it's going there, but one of his, like the, basis of his app was to cut out all of that, like, middle conversation that's kind of painful. So, it was basically like, your, your AI bot and their AI bot will be talking and, like, having that back and forth.
And then you see the convo and say, like, okay, do I actually want to, like, you know, continue talking to this person or meet up with them? And I really think, in theory, it's a super [00:45:00] interesting idea because it's really just. It's helping with efficiency, which is what AI is doing in a lot of other places as well.
I'm just not sure if we're there yet. Like, as a society, I do think in the next couple of years though, that's going to grow exponentially and it will really shake up technology. Cause I personally think it would be a shame if we just like lost technology completely from dating because I was definitely grew up in the era of You a two, both of us, like we would be going out all the time, trying to meet people.
And it was hard to like, do that, you know, like it's draining to always be on and to go out all the time. It's not to say you shouldn't be going out into the world. I think we've gone like swung too far the other way, but I think dating apps were like a relief. I was like, Oh, I can like meet people sitting at home and I don't always have to be on or find someone to go out with.
So I wouldn't want to take technology out, but I do think it needs to shift dramatically and it will in the next 10 years.
[00:45:58] Ellecia: Yeah, I, I agree. [00:46:00] I actually work with a, an AI powered love coaching app called Elixr that originally started out as we were going to be a dating app and we were like, Nope, we don't need another dating app.
We need more tools for people to figure out what's going to work for them and how to be really solid in themselves and then take that into meeting people.
[00:46:21] Julie: I mean, that's another trend that we are seeing too. It's interesting that you have, I'm very, I want to check out that app. That sounds super cool, but we're seeing a lot of like community based dating too, where people are, you know, learning those relational skills more because I think like, when you think about it, like the one thing you don't need in a relationship is a dating profile.
Yet, we put so much emphasis on. on that end of dating. And I think we need to swing back to like, what are those core relational skills? And that's why we're so frustrated right now, because we're just funneling our attention into all the wrong things.
[00:46:57] Ellecia: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. A hundred percent. [00:47:00] And I think that that goes for even like, Whether, whether you're like looking for a life partner or you're looking for someone to hook up with, like, yeah, you like still like, what, who are you at your core leading with?
Like, what are you looking for? And are we compatible? And, and, and being able to have conversations around that rather than, I don't know, trying to like, peek around the corner of what the other person put in, like, put on their profile, but there's really something else behind it and trying to figure it out.
[00:47:32] Julie: That's the thing is what people say and what's actually authentic is never accurate either. Yeah. People tell you what they think you want to hear, what feel like sounds like right.
Yeah. Yeah. And maybe we'll keep, we'll be more clear about. Dating in general, the dating stage, because that's kind of what we're missing right now.
We're reading people's minds. So what I find fascinating is hierarchical polyamory, where you know you're a primary or not in someone's relationship. [00:48:00] And in fact, if you think about it, that is exactly how monogamous people are. Dating works too. You just don't know if you're the primary or not. You're constantly guessing.
Am I the primary to this person? You don't even know if you're the primary in your own life yet. So I think it's kind of like, maybe we just peel back all the, all the mystery around that. And we, maybe there's some way for us to be like, okay, I like you. We are dating, but there is someone else that I'm prioritizing over you, and I'm just trying to figure things out, but that's my primary right now.
Can you imagine? Monogamous dating. I didn't like that. I think that would be amazing.
[00:48:40] Ellecia: More
communication.
[00:48:41] Ellecia: You're real here.
Amazing. Okay. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you, um, want to
share? The only thing I can think of, and the reason why we didn't touch upon this is that, um, I'm not sure if it's totally dire for your [00:49:00] audience, but we talk about the love crisis, and which is, if we keep going with modern dating the way it is, there are a lot of people tapping out, I mean, giving up on love.
I mean, Pew Research has come out with this research that said, you know, over 50 percent of single Americans are actually giving up on love and giving up on dating. I say, I don't think this really applies to your audience specifically, because your audience is looking to participate in dating, just different types of dating.
So thank goodness. Thank you all for participating. But for, for the majority of daters right now, there is this lull that we feel. So what we're hoping with this book is to show people that we don't need to fall to this love crisis. We can all rise above. and really prioritize love with us at the forefront.
Yes.
[00:49:51] Ellecia: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. You know, actually, it's really fascinating. I talked to a lot of people who identify as relationship anarchists, and a lot of that [00:50:00] is, um, uh, creating relationships, regardless of if they're romantic or sexual, if there's love involved, whatever, but creating relationships that work for the people in the relationships.
And that might mean, um, You know, um, platonic partners, you know, living with your best friend and raising your kids together or, you know, and, and then having other people that you date outside the house. Um, there's so many different ways. And that's one of the things I love about non monogamy is just kind of this, like, the same idea, like you can DIY, you can create relationships that work for the people in them, um, regardless, without having to like, Without having to follow a certain pathway.
Yeah.
[00:50:41] Julie: Yeah. No, I mean, that's definitely, I think the biggest takeaway is like you designed your love life. It's, it's you, you co create with whoever is involved in it. And I agree. I love hearing the stories of like two best friends that bought a house together, co raising their kids. And it's like, that's amazing.
If that is truly [00:51:00] what you want and want to do, but if it's, you know, it's staying true to yourself, ultimately at the end, whatever path you go down.
[00:51:08] Ellecia: Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, how can people find you and your book?
[00:51:16] Julie: Yeah. How to be dateable. com is where our book is. You can actually take the archetype quiz on that site, even if you don't get the book, but hopefully you do buy the book.
But if, even if you don't, you can learn about your dating archetype. And of course you can listen to our podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts and at dateable podcast can follow us on social. I love that. Thank you.
[00:51:39] Ellecia: Um, of course I'll put the links in the show notes. I have one more question for you and it doesn't go on the main episode.
It's, uh, for our, uh, Patreon supporters at patreon. com slash not monogamous. It's called just the tip and it's what is a favorite or best, uh, sex tip that you would give the listeners?
[00:52:00] Oh,
[00:52:11] Ellecia: That's amazing. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you for coming on. This is amazing. I really, really enjoyed this book. I have little tags throughout it because I was like, this is good.
[00:52:22] Julie: It's really good. I'm impressed. We'll send you like the final copy too. Yes, you have it. I
[00:52:31] Ellecia: really like it. I love it. Thank you.
And let's also
[00:52:35] Julie: arrange to have you on our podcast, maybe for next season, if that works for you.
[00:52:42] Ellecia: I would love that. That would be amazing.
[00:52:44] Julie: Cool. We'll reach out on topics and stuff and get that going.
[00:52:52] Ellecia: Okay. Did you hear Yue's top sex tip? How about Julie's?
They might just change the way you approach intimacy entirely. [00:53:00] Maybe. So if you didn't catch it, head over to patreon. com slash notmonogamous and become one of our friends with benefits or lovers so that you can get all of the juicy tips. Bye.