How I Learned to Embrace Abundance in Non-Monogamous Relationships, Ep. 69
Hey friends! We’re going on a journey with Nicoletta Heidegger, therapist, sexologist, and host of the "Sluts and Scholars" podcast, as we chat about the world of non-monogamy on my latest podcast episode. Nicoletta opened up about her 7-year exploration from monogamy to embracing a non-monogamous lifestyle, sharing the raw challenges she encountered along the way. From aligning with partners who share her vision to battling the need to feel "special" and dismantling a scarcity mindset, Nicoletta's story is both vulnerable and profoundly relatable.
In this episode, you'll discover:
Some of the joys and challenges of navigating non-monogamous relationships.
Some Strategies for overcoming common hurdles in the transition to non-monogamy.
The importance of building connections with seasoned individuals in the non-monogamous community.
Techniques for nervous system regulation to achieve relationship harmony.
The critical role of self-awareness in cultivating healthy and fulfilling relationships.
Want to get in touch with Nicoletta?
@SlutsonScholars
@therapywithnicoletta
Resources in this episode
Check out the book The Polyamory Paradox by Irene Mourning for insights into somatic nervous system healing and finding confidence in non-monogamy.
Explore the concept of Circles of Sexuality by searching online for resources and tools to understand your sexual narrative, beliefs, and values.
Learn about equine-assisted psychotherapy and its benefits by researching local therapy centers or practitioners who offer this unique form of therapy.
To claim your free clarity chat with Ellecia visit https://elleciapaine.podia.com/clarity-chat
Do you feel like you could use some help with your relationships?
Get on a free call with Ellecia to see how she can help you move through the challenges of jealousy, fear, anxiety, and insecurities in a way that strengthens your relationships, deepens your trust, and communication, and leaves you feeling confident.
https://elleciapaine.podia.com/clarity-chat
📰 Subscribe to Not A Monogamous Newsletter to stay up to date with new episodes and offerings from Ellecia.
❤️ Enjoying the show? The best way to thank us is by following and leaving a review or a note. And if you want more, join our Patreon!
Get free shipping on my favorite toys!!
👀 Find Us Online
- Website
- Facebook
- Instagram
Credits
- Host/Producer: Ellecia Paine
- Editor/Producer: Danny Walters
- Hosted on Buzzsprout
Transcript:
Ellecia: 0:14
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships enthusiastic non-monogamy polyamory, swinging kink and our lives. You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, nope, we're not monogamous. Hey friends, let's go on a journey today with Nicoletta Heidegger, therapist, sexologist and the host of the Sluts and Scholars podcast. As we chat about the world of non-monogamy. On today's episode, nicoletta opened up about her seven-year exploration from monogamy to embracing a non-monogamous lifestyle, sharing some of the raw challenges that she encountered along the way, from aligning with partners who share her vision to battling the need to feel special and dismantling a scarcity mindset. Her story is profoundly relatable. One of the most insightful parts of our conversation is how Nicoletta navigated feelings of jealousy by forming genuine connections with her metamores and understanding her attachment style, her core values and her relationship needs. She really emphasized the importance of self-awareness in choosing the relationship structure that suits you best, whether it's monogamy, non-monogamy, something in between there, advocating for a deeply personal and informed decision-making process. Also, her work in equine assisted psychotherapy gives a really unique perspective on healing and emotional growth and I'm excited to share that portion with you. It's very, very fascinating. In today's episode, you're going to discover some of the joys and challenges of navigating non-monogamous relationships, some strategies for overcoming common hurdles in the transition to non-monogamy, the importance of building connections with seasoned people in the non-monogamous community, some techniques for nervous system regulation so you can achieve relationship harmony, and the critical role of self-awareness in cultivating healthy and fulfilling relationships. If you've found yourself grappling with relationship dynamics that are offering some challenges, I would love to hear your thoughts and takeaways from this conversation. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast for more episodes like this. If you're looking to explore your relationship dynamics further or you need guidance on your journey, book a clarity chat with me, a free call and we can help you navigate the path to fulfilling relationships that you're looking for. Enjoy, we did it. Yay, welcome, welcome. Thank you for coming on and joining me here. I'm happy to be here. Well, you do me a favor and tell me how to pronounce your name.
Nicoletta: 3:19
Yes, Nicoletta Heidegger.
Ellecia: 3:21
Nicoletta Heidegger, I love it, thank you, that's great Thank you no problem From Sluts and Scholars. I really like your podcast.
Nicoletta: 3:32
Thank you so much. Thank you for tuning in.
Ellecia: 3:35
I appreciate it yeah yeah, it's great, it's great.
Nicoletta: 3:39
It's like you fit into one or both of the categories, so all are welcome. Either or and Absolutely.
Ellecia: 3:52
I love that, yeah. So let's okay, let's start this way. Why don't I ask you what is your? How do you identify on the spectrum of monogamy to non-monogamy?
Nicoletta: 4:10
Great question. I identify, I would say, like somewhere in the middle, that's a little more towards a polyamory, but definitely on the non-monogamy scale. When I first was with my current partner, we identified as like monogamish and since that it's been about seven plus years. We've really kind of like had many different evolutions over that time and so as it stands now I know there's mixed feelings about all of this and I work with clients in my sex therapy practice of like all different permutations of relationship, but for myself the way it's currently been working well is there is a bit of a hierarchical setup where I do kind of have this anchor partner. We don't live together, but others might call it like their nesting partner. So we've definitely nested kind of in our life together but have openness for together and separate connections. The reason I don't say like full polyamory is because I mean, I think polyamory can take many different forms and I definitely have the capacity to connect with and love many people, but more so just like time. Yeah, I have been feeling like I don't have the time for like certain levels of committed relationships, but, that being said, any type of kind of non monogamy experiences that I engage in usually do include some type of connection. There's obviously a mutual respect, but I would say a bigger chunk of my time goes to my primary partner.
Ellecia: 5:51
I love that. Thank you. It's so fascinating to me all of the variations of relationship styles that people get into. Tell me this I was in this conversation this morning about monogamy. I think I had asked on social media, like where people fall, and someone said that they had been monogamy and defined that as like they could flirt and like hold hands and hug people that they weren't in their relationship with. And I was reading that and I'm thinking but that's just monogamy, isn't it? Oh my God, we all have such different definitions Such different definitions Totally.
Nicoletta: 6:32
Well, that's why I'm glad you ask it, because, and why when I talk to my clients and things we really delve deep into. Well, what does that mean to you? What does this mean to you? What does that actually look like? Because we all have our life experience that's going to define it differently, and I actually had a client who taught me a definition recently that you may have heard of, and they called it creative monogamy, and I really liked this definition. And, again, depending who you ask, it may be different, but the way it was kind of defined to me is folks who are for the most part, monogamous, but they're kind of like straight but not narrow, right, so it's a little bit in this idea that, like, we are like romantically and sexually monogamous in these traditional ways, but we have an openness to like discuss other possibilities and so, whether that's our fantasies, our desires, what we might want to like evolve into things we might want to do, to find this sort of like creative way to express ourselves, and that was cool. And then for monogamish, I feel like the OG name of that, I think, was Dan Savage, so he may have a different definition, but for me it's like you've got this kind of core primary partnership and you have some like polysexual things that you dabble in and out of together, but there's like a pretty strong emphasis on y'all being the only like romantic connection, and it might not be something that's as ongoing, but it's like, yeah, maybe we're a little open.
Ellecia: 8:01
We're a little loose in the definitions, yeah.
Nicoletta: 8:05
Like sometimes if the mood's right and they're hot enough and we've talked and it feels good. Like you know, we're open to some creativity, but otherwise it's mostly us.
Ellecia: 8:15
I've heard. I think when I first heard it I was thinking of like where people have like zip code rules, Like if you're out of our, if you're outside of our immediate area, traveling or whatever, then fair game yeah.
Nicoletta: 8:31
And you know, what comes up for me when you're talking about that is and I talk about this with my clients too is just the ongoing conversation that I have with myself, with my clients and with my partner around like control versus love versus control, right, and just sort of like why and when we make certain boundaries and like how informed are they? You know, are they coming from this place of fear and control because we just like need to have something, because we're feeling dysregulated, or have we like regulated ourselves, considered all the options, and this still works for us. So I think there's a. They might look the same on paper, but one is coming from this kind of scared feeling out of control, need to feel more control place, and the other is like, you know, this is just our flavor and we have kind of informed consent about all the options and this is what works best for us, not from a place of control, but because it's what we both need and desire. We know why we may be choosing this. Maybe there's something we're working on around this, but like we're yeah, we're intentionally choosing this together.
Ellecia: 9:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the intention, right, totally yeah. Oh, that was beautiful. So I'm curious, excuse me, oh, the cold I'm curious about have you always identified on a scale of non-monogamy, or is that like a thing that evolved over time and experience?
Nicoletta: 10:03
Yeah, for me I would say it's something that evolved over time and experience, but I always had the interest. I just didn't necessarily have the skills or the terminology for it. I'm one of those people who had some. Either I would find myself interested in someone else and I would break up with my partner because I was like, well, I want to go hook up with that person, so I guess I'm going to end this, or I would cheat Lesser on the ladder because, like I said, I would more go towards. Well, I guess this is over. That was probably more until early college times. Once I got into college and was learning more about this, I wasn't necessarily practicing it. When I had a partner I was doing a little more of the serial monogamy, but in between that it was a lot more like solo poly experiences. But I still had what my friend colleague Dr Laurie Beth Bisbee calls the monogamy hangover where I was like, oh, I guess I still have to find, when I find that person who feels a little better, we have the commitment conversation. And so this is the first partner that I have had for not doing kind of solo, non monogamy, where I've really practiced it, also in a committed partnership and so, like I said, it's been about seven, eight years, so definitely formed early, interested early, had practiced with it as like a solo data before, but now I feel like I'm doing it in a practiced adult regulated way.
Ellecia: 11:42
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that, the monogamy hangover or like the detox from it, because it really is. It's like I have all these ideals, I have an idea of what I think things should be, and then, when rubber hits the road, it's like, oh, and now my heart is all invested and never mine, right, yeah.
Nicoletta: 12:02
And you know, I had a therapist for a really long time. I love her so much, she helped me in so many things, but she was pretty monogamously minded, I would say. And so I just remember, in college I would have these experiences where, like I'd be starting to date someone and then this other person would come in and, like you know, I kept getting sort of advised to like have this conversation, but it was all around choosing one, you know, as opposed to like now I could get to have a conversation of like I don't have to choose and let me talk about the other options. So yeah, it's definitely evolved, but it evolved because I was able to surround myself more with community and other people who showed me that it was possible, because a lot of kind of traditional therapists, you know, will say it never works out.
Ellecia: 12:50
Right, it's due.
Nicoletta: 12:53
Neither does.
Ellecia: 12:54
monogamy yeah exactly what relationship does? Yeah, exactly, we all end them in the end.
Nicoletta: 13:05
So the great optimistic way they all suck.
Ellecia: 13:14
Amazing. What would you say has been like the biggest challenge of moving from monogamy to non-monogamy?
Nicoletta: 13:26
Oh, yeah, I would say a few things. I mean one challenge is, I think, partly because of that sort of monogamy hangover, you know, that I would still be sometimes choosing partners that were more monogamously minded or who didn't have kind of practice in non-monogamy, because I think, whether it was one part of me rejecting that part of myself or a part of me that like still wanted to be like the chosen special one to one person and a part of me still likes that. You know, sometimes I challenge myself on that because I'm like, oh, in quote unquote real polyamory, there should be like no hierarchy and like I shouldn't want to be the most special and have like a main person. But then there's another part of me that knows that I'm healing a lot of like anxious attachment wounds and other things, and it has been healing and grounding to like have a co-pilot like to do that with, and so I would say that's been a thing is just like choosing people who were kind of like in more monogamously minded, because I like wanted that, a certain kind of stereotyped commitment, but then another part of me being like but let's get to the monogamy and them being like a lot slower in the process than I was. So that's been a struggle, is like me feeling more speedy than some of the folks that I've, you know, chosen in the past. Another piece, like I said, is that healing from anxious attachment around, like wanting to be special. And then the third piece is that kind of has to do with the specialness is is and this comes up for me outside of relationships, doing this mindset of scarcity. You know and trying to lean into abundance or whatever. But you know that there's lots of love and maybe not enough time to go around, but there's lots of like, love and connection, opportunities to go around and feeling kind of strong and confident in my specialness. But, like I said, that's something I've kind of had to work on across the board in business and work and podcasting, whatever it is. So those are, those have been some of my main struggles, I would say. And then just the continued struggle, like the first one I mentioned, of just like partners desiring different things. You know whether that be like well, this sounds fun to me or this doesn't sound fun to me and having to yeah, it's, it's a lot of communication, it's a lot of embodied awareness, it's a lot of it's a it's. Yeah, it's a lot of work, it's been worth it to me, but it's, it's work.
Ellecia: 17:32
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so so so fricking relatable Holy cow.
Nicoletta: 17:37
I'm sure a lot of people listening have some similarities with this, I hope.
Ellecia: 17:42
Mm-hmm, yep, yep, yep, yep Something I've been talking about a lot lately, like I feel like the last four episodes that has come up like choosing partners that you're compatible with and like what you want out of relationships, right, like that's such a big piece of it. But the other thing that has been a theme for like the last month, just in all of my good sessions with clients, has been this specialness piece, like wanting to feel special. What is the thing that makes me special? What are the things that make our relationship special? That like anxious yeah, ugh, grossness that comes up, which is a thing you know. I haven't been doing this like 10 years. I think We've been non-monogamous and it's still a thing that comes up Like what is the thing that makes me special? And for me, one of the things that I've found super, super helpful is when I'm feeling that comparison is to just go gas people up like crazy, like oh my God, you're amazing, and it like it, almost. It like tears down that kind of wall, that like that I put up between me and my competition, right.
Nicoletta: 18:55
Yeah, I think the tool that's been helpful for me around that is getting to know the people better and so I, even though I maybe don't practice like what some would consider the full of polyamory and again, that's subjective, a little bit right Like but for me, the more communication, the more openness, the more I like know somebody, the better I feel and that could I see that happening sometimes for my clients who are a little bit anxious, like we want to know all the things, right to like, be prepared. But for me it's also like if I can form like a real connection, friendship, relationship, metamoreship, like with somebody, then I want good things for them, more right, and so it is a little easier to feel competitive with somebody that I know a little bit less, because I sort of put them onto this pedestal and they're just like somehow better, somehow whatever you know there's. There it's easier to compare, which is like what we do on social media versus when I'm really connecting with someone. I'm seeing that we have these differences. I'm able to connect with them, see their awesomeness, their humanness and connect on that sort of vulnerable level. It feels a lot better.
Ellecia: 20:11
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm, mm, hmm. Yep, absolutely, absolutely Same, and I think so much easier.
Nicoletta: 20:17
Yeah, and just building like that trust with somebody too, I think is important, and so for me, the more I know, the more connections I can make, which is why, again, it has been important for me to connect with other people who are at least a little more experienced in nonmonogamy at this point in my path is because, yeah, I don't want to have to do that like teaching anymore and I want folks who want to also like connect and know me in that way. Otherwise it's I feel like I'm working with a client, which I love doing, but they pay me, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah. Of course there's going to be learning and teaching, but you know it's different. Yeah, I don't necessarily want to be. I want to be the teacher of me and what I like, but not have to start with the basics again with somebody.
Ellecia: 21:06
Yeah, absolutely I know. I remember when my husband and I we've never been monogamous together, but when we started out we were like swinging and you know, just doing things like that and I remember so many people stating that they didn't want to be involved with anybody who was new. And I'm like I don't understand, but why? Yeah, like, how are we supposed to get any experience?
Nicoletta: 21:29
I know it's like a job and now I'm like we won't hire you unless you have experience. But you can't get experience unless you have experience.
Ellecia: 21:35
Yes, exactly. And now I get it, though I'm like I just don't want to. I don't want to go through all that. Yeah, somebody else can.
Nicoletta: 21:42
Right, I mean I guess I'm open to folks that are new, but I want to know that they've, like, done the work. Like I want to know that they've read things, they've taken classes, they've gone to therapy. So like I'm open to a little more newness, but, like for people who are actively doing the work.
Ellecia: 21:57
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally, totally, like I can, can't agree.
Nicoletta: 22:02
Yeah, I don't know what the option is for that. Maybe it's like connecting with other new people, but I don't know.
Ellecia: 22:10
I mean, you know it's the crash course. Yeah, I hear that. Have you ever gotten? Or what is the most like awkward or inappropriate or intrusive thing anybody has said or asked you about your relationship?
Nicoletta: 22:33
Hmm, Awkward and intrusive, that someone has asked me about my relationships. You know, I'm a little bit lucky I don't know if lucky is the right word, but it just is that I am a sex therapist and a sex educator and so I feel like, because of the content that I already put out, because of like how people know me, they, they already sort of like assume some of these things and so they don't necessarily ask me. You know some of this stuff. But I will say, you know, I've definitely had like adults in my life that have known me for like long periods of time, who, who don't quite get it. You know and there's a lot of saying stuff around just again that that old moniker of like it doesn't work, or being like how could you be okay that your partner's not jealous, that you're doing these other things right, that they're like they're upset, that I don't know, they think my partner maybe doesn't like love me as much because I'm okay with them doing these other things, or yeah, that kind of that kind of stuff. And I think it feels especially uncomfortable when it comes from people that I know have cheated on each other in monogamy. So I've like had people or adults that I know in my life, who I know are like currently or have had recent cheating stuff, and again, no, no judgment. Like we, a lot of us, have been there. But when they're having this judgment coming from this place of like, of hierarchy, that like monogamy is better. And then I know they're coming from this place where, like, they've had a lot of fuckups in it and I wouldn't say it makes me feel like bad or awkward, but I'm just sort of like I don't wanna talk to you about this. So it's less like invasive, bad, awkward, frustrating, and more just like who I intentionally choose to talk to about this stuff. Like I said, people on the outside probably can guess and know and hear things, but it's more like the people that I go in depth with, like I said, unless they're clients or I'm like doing something for an educational purpose, I'm just kind of like I don't really wanna waste my time talking to you about this because I don't wanna educate you unless you wanna be educated.
Ellecia: 24:49
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, especially if they're just looking for something to argue against.
Nicoletta: 24:53
Yeah, and the other piece with that is when they get maybe angry or presentive that I think non-monogamy is better and that when I'm sharing these things, just sharing like what works for me, that I'm saying that they're doing it wrong, you know there's like this assumption that, okay, well, I'm saying I'm better and I'm more evolved, or I'm this and maybe I'm expressing it in a way that I need to shift, but I think it's more about their own stuff and so that's also. The frustrating thing is, like when I'm just trying to share, educate about my experience, as opposed to just hearing that and being like that's cool, that works for you, or like I have questions about how that works for you, and instead they might feel like I'm personally attacking their choice to be monogamous, like I think monogamy is a great choice. I just like advocate for people to actually know what the options are so they can make an informed choice of what actually works for them, to decide and not slide into monogamy. So that's the annoying piece that comes up to that I hate having to defend.
Ellecia: 25:58
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely Like you can choose and create relationships that work for everyone in them.
Nicoletta: 26:06
Right, yeah, and if monogamy works for you, great. And just like I was saying about the non-monogamy thing, like I've definitely had or felt perceived judgment sometimes from other people when I say like we have a hierarchical setup or like I have this primary partner or an anchor partner, you know, I would say some folks are like who are in the more anarchistic, non-hierarchical, hedonistic setup, that are just like not about that and that's fine. Then maybe we might not work together but there can be judgment even within the community as well, and that is frustrating because I think in-group fighting is what keeps, you know, sort of like minority sexual populations, like stigmatized and so, granted, we're not gonna love every setup and we may have some judgments about every setup or we may see certain relationships where it's like, yeah, that looks more like control rather than like love and informed consent and all that, and we've got to stop creating these hierarchies about hierarchy.
Ellecia: 27:15
You must follow these rules that say you cannot create rules.
Nicoletta: 27:22
Right, right, exactly. Yeah, I know that's not a rule, it's a little bit of a boundary. That's a boundary, but it's interesting because then it has me sort of gaslighting myself sometimes. I don't know how you feel or what your current setup is, but it has me gaslighting myself, sometimes being like, well, I'm a sex therapist. Should I be doing this even more this way, or should I be doing this, or should you know? Should? I'm all over myself when I'm like no, I've done a lot of therapy. I've gotten clear about what I need, like this is what's working for me, and I don't necessarily need to defend that. I need to find folks who are on board for that and feel excited about what it is that we can collaborate on together. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ellecia: 28:03
I find it really, really helpful to just keep in mind that human brains like structure and borders, and categories and like our brains feel a lot of comfort in knowing what's going to happen.
Nicoletta: 28:18
Even if we can't know, even those of us that are like challenging that we have categories, there's still struggle.
Ellecia: 28:23
Yeah, exactly. So it's like it's okay that my brain wants that, that's fine. And where can I find the edges I can stretch and bend?
Nicoletta: 28:31
Yeah, yes, yes. I mean I kind of liken it to like. Even if I am making certain relational choices because of like trauma or anxious attachment or whatever it is like, for me the important key there is that I have like awareness about it. I guess I kind of liken it to. I had a guest and a friend on my podcast recently. We actually have a live show coming up, august McLaughlin from Girl Boner Radio and I remember she was talking about shaving your legs and talking about it as like, how do we make informed choices about body hair care? Right, a lot of people are just like oh, I shave my legs because that's just what you do, and we were talking about how it's still okay to shave your legs, but good to be curious about why I'm shaving my legs and I may still decide to shave them, but at least to have the information of like I'm shaving my legs because of the patriarchy and because of what I see in the media and because of all these things, and I'm still here to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I kind of like this approach of like, even if you're maybe choosing something or at a certain place in your relationship because of your life, something that's happened to you trauma, whatever like. For me, the key to that is at least some insight and like doing some non-judgmental work around.
Ellecia: 29:46
that, I think, is great, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, just having like a little bit of awareness and also that's okay.
Nicoletta: 29:56
This is who I am, this is how I'm showing up, as long as I'm not harming people it's fine, yeah, yeah, and I think that the harming people I don't know how you feel about this, I'd love to hear your insight but I think the harming people piece is that I think classically a lot of folks who are like Managa Mish or even swingers or people who aren't like the non-hierarch, anyone sort of non-hierarchical polyamory. I think there is sort of this fear that if someone is like a tertiary partner or a comet partner or someone who's maybe not your you know nesting partner, that like they are less valued as a human. And I think that's something that I try to challenge, because just because I maybe have this potentially hierarchical setup, that doesn't mean that like I want to dehumanize and harm other people and just use them. But I think there's that fear that folks have who have been unicorn hunted before or have felt secondary to a primary setup, and so it's layered, it's complicated, but I'd like to think that it can be built up both hands.
Ellecia: 31:12
So my way of approaching that my way I always try to approach that is, I treat every person as a friend right, as friendships like. I have lots of friends that I see occasionally or I keep up with online, right. And I have friends that I meet up with every week and I have friends that I live with and I have a friend that I'm married to and I have friends that I have really hot dates with, and I treat them all as my friends, so that in my mind I don't Bring in the monogamous conditioning that says that romance makes people more important Right, because that's like that's a real big like as soon as it's romantic, they're a more important person who you know you have to put everything into. And so I try to consider, like these are my friends. If this is my friend, how do I want to treat them and where do they fit into my life and my schedule and all of my priorities and my commitments? And, you know, do I have time for tea with them or do I have time for an orgy with them? Like, what kind of a friendship do we have?
Nicoletta: 32:15
Right, and, as you said, though, even in non-romantic things, like people still do choose best friends. Yeah, right, or they choose people that they're going to spend a little more time with, or that they see a little bit more often, for a variety of reasons and factors. But I like what you're saying. I think I don't know if it was in the New York Times, but some newspaper article talking about, like, the rise of the importance of friendship and like how, in this culture, there's been such a pressure put on that like romantic relationships are the most important epitome thing as opposed to friendships, and how a lot of people are challenging that now.
Ellecia: 32:50
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it's super important because we put so much as soon. As soon as we say love, right, I love you, or I'm in love, or I'm all Twitter-pated then all of a sudden, there's all of these unspoken expectations, there's all of these things that we suddenly want to have happen, even if we're not like super aware of them. Right, and it's like but if I tell my friend that I had dinner with last week, that I love her, none of that comes into place. So, so it's like I really try to go OK, if this were my friend and sometimes I have to do that, I have to like zoom out. If this is my friend, like you know, if this is my bestie, that's off having her own relationship. How would I talk to her about it? What would I do?
Nicoletta: 33:34
Yeah, yeah, I like that yeah that's helpful.
Ellecia: 33:38
I don't always, I'm not always successful at it, but that's what I try to do.
Nicoletta: 33:42
Right, I mean everything we're talking about. None of us are always successful at it, right, right, like I said, like this is my field, this is my practice. I support lots of folks in this, but, like, I'm still a human being and we're all still working at things. So, yeah, it's not going to be perfect. Yeah, I'm still learning to, even though I consider myself like a quote, unquote expert in the field, like I don't think anyone's ever like expert and done. You know, like, beware the what is the phrase? Beware the Buddha on the road or whatever it is. Like that you know the guru, yeah, I would like to always be learning.
Ellecia: 34:17
I have all the answers. Just do what I say and follow my cult and send me $10,000. It'll be great, I promise.
Nicoletta: 34:24
Yeah, I mean if you're listening and you want to do that. Feel free, Exactly.
Ellecia: 34:30
Exactly, I feel like I'm almost to the age that I could start a cult. It's fine, yeah.
Nicoletta: 34:34
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I don't want to start it, but if somebody uplifts me to cult leader, I will pay their money, absolutely. Yeah, that's the real smart way to start a cult is like. I didn't choose this. I just people, just they needed leadership in my innocence and wisdom. I've done way too much research on cults, though, like I grew up in Chatsworth, which is where spawn ranch was, which is where the Manson family lived, and so all of my and I'm obviously into psychology and mental health as a therapist, so all of my papers in school were all about cults, and so I studied a lot about the charismatic leader. That is very interesting. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Ellecia: 35:18
Oh, I love that, I love that. Okay, tell me this what is? What's one thing that anybody can do for free that would help them approach relationships in a healthier way?
Nicoletta: 35:34
One thing anyone can do for free. Oh, I've got it. There is a thing that I do with clients. You can find it online for free. It was created by a researcher back in the 80s but it's kind of still gold, I would say. There's been changes and adjustments to it, but it's called the circles of sexuality and it's. Have you seen it before? I'm not sure. It's like a bunch of concentric circles that kind of all meet together with like values in the middle. But if you just Google circles of sexuality, it will come up in one of its many permutations, and within each circle are sort of different aspects that make us who we are as sexual and relational beings, under the belief that you know so many things can impact the way we show up as a sexual and relational person and so many aspects of our sex and relationship stuff can affect our life, and so it's a jumping off point to help people figure out their sexual story, their sexual narrative. You know what are the beliefs that you're bringing in. So a lot of what we were talking about right in this episode is just about, like, what are the beliefs that you've brought in to how you interact with women relationships, monogamy, non-monogamy To help you get clear about, like what are the values that I have? Where did they come from? Are these actually my values? If not, you know whose voice comes into play here. Which of these values and narratives and stories do I want to keep and which do I want to eliminate? And so this is something you can do through journaling, through talking with friends, through with a therapist, you know whatever on your own, but to me that's a free way is to use that as a jumping off point to figure out what you're coming into this with. So you know a little more about what your triggers are, where your hangups might be and what you want your values to be.
Ellecia: 37:22
Yes, yes, yes, yes. I love this so much. I really think it's so important for people to know where they're starting out in order to get to where they're going, and we don't do that, and I would say my second, agreed, agreed.
Nicoletta: 37:35
And I would say my second one is and there's free options on YouTube is to like learn nervous system regulation techniques If you're willing to spend money. My dear friend and colleague, Irene Morning, has a great book called the Polyamory Paradox where she talks about somatic nervous system healing in finding your confidence in non-monogamy. It's wonderful, it's a short read would recommend, but if you, you know, can't afford the book, then I would say at least YouTube some nervous system regulation stuff. So, whether that's learning some breaths, learning or not on your body, or certain types of breath, or learning how to resource, like start building your toolbox, because if you are someone who wants to be in a relationship of any kind, ideally growing your nervous system regulation is going to help you deal with whatever pops up, as opposed to just like dealing with each issue as it comes. This is going to help you deal with, like sensations and emotions in your body, and so I would say that's key for any of this, especially in non-monogamy. But monogamy people could benefit too. They're just often not as directly being highlighted on the things that they're struggling with.
Ellecia: 39:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's amazing. I have not read this book, but now it's on my list.
Nicoletta: 39:09
Oh yeah, should be a great guest too. I would recommend Irene. Lots of great stuff and it's written so excessively that you really feel like you're like, yes girl, like she's talking to me. So highly recommend.
Ellecia: 39:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's amazing, thank you, thank you, absolutely Perfect, so good. Okay, I have another question for you, kind of unrelated, but I was so curious when you wrote in your little thing, before we started the podcast, about something that you've been excited about lately, which is equine therapy. Can you tell me a little bit about that, because I'm really curious?
Nicoletta: 39:46
Yeah, and I don't know if you've heard during this interview, either you or listeners, that there's animal sounds in the background. I think I have a good mic that's not picking them up, but if you have heard them. I'm currently at my office, which is at a ranch, and my neighbors that I'm looking at right now are pigs, goats, sheep, and then we've got horses, donkey and alpacas chickens. There are all kinds of animals here, but I moved my therapy office to a ranch partway through the pandemic. I grew up as a oh and just to define the word you said, equine, For people who don't know what that is, it is the equus family which is horses, donkeys, mules, things like that, and there is a type of therapy called equine assisted psychotherapy where you work with horses as sort of your secondary therapist to help support people, and I've seen it be helpful for all kinds of things trauma, anxiety, relationships, depression, even sex therapy, but not in a bestiality range, to clarify. Thank you for that. Yeah, just like you know, I like to, I like to name that, but there's a lot of overlaps actually and I do sex therapy work with the support of equines, but it's really around, like just to give an example, so it's an experiential type of therapy. I would also call it a somatic type of therapy, which means like in the body therapy, but it's experiential in that you're like learning through doing so, instead of in the office just talking about hypotheticals. You're kind of working through thoughts, feelings, behaviors as they come up in real time with the support of a non-judgmental has its own personality creature. And so to give an example of what this can look like, because it can vary sometimes we're just doing therapy in the equine environment, which means like I'm having a normal talk therapy session with someone, but we happen to be sitting next to a horse and it's just regulating to their nervous system to be with the horse, to be in nature, and so that's it. Other times it's more guided. There's many different styles and approaches to equine assisted therapy, For example. I'll just lay out some sessions that I've done. So one that I did the other day or that I do with folks is around trauma work and boundaries, and so what this looks like is I will, and this is based in what I've learned from a type of therapy called somatic experiencing mixed with equine therapy. So I kind of for me, I sort of create my own approach a little bit, but just an example of what a session could look like. I've got clients who are working on trauma, resourcing from trauma, resiliency after trauma, survivorship and boundaries and things like that. So what we did was we picked a horse that we wanted to work with, we talked about it all before laid out consent negotiations, kind of like a kink scene, you know, talked about all of that, and then the session looked like we picked a horse and I had them. After a little safety spiel, I went to the far end of the what's called the arena, which is a big dirt circle where we go hang out with the horses. And so I went to the far end with the horse and my clients stand on the other end, and then I basically have them tell me when they would like me to walk towards them and I'll start walking. And basically what they do is they tell me when there's any shift inside their body and if they're starting to feel some kind of a way. And so when they're starting to feel some kind of a way, they have to tell me to stop. And then it's sort of this practice in being able to name your needs, say what you want, but also have it heard and listened to, and so we're practicing boundary work and consent setting and sort of having reparative experiences through the sometimes fear that horses elicit and having someone be able to like work through that in real time. That's amazing. So that's just one example. There's a lots of other ways it can look, but it's been great for lots of things and, like I said, that relates to sex, because it's all about relationships, boundaries, connections, all these kinds of things. Yeah, yeah yeah, there.
Ellecia: 44:17
I don't know if you've seen the new season of sex education, but one of the characters starts working with horses and like I you know what.
Nicoletta: 44:24
I haven't watched the new season yet. It's on my list.
Ellecia: 44:27
Oh my God, it's so good and one of the characters is like he's like I'm going to go, I'm going to go work with horses and he does. And he's like, okay, his boss is like come here, come hug the horse, and he does. And then later he's repairing his relationship with his dad and he gets his dad to hug the horse and like it's just, it's so sweet and I love it so much. It was just, it was lovely.
Nicoletta: 44:46
Yeah, see, it's starting to come to the forefront. I was also featured in Queer Eye a couple seasons ago in Queer Eye, so it's more people are learning about it.
Ellecia: 44:56
I love that. That is so good. Yeah, I love there's so many different ways that you can find support and healing and, like I just want people to like find the things that work for them.
Nicoletta: 45:12
Yeah, I mean, this is a great one for people who, like, really want to be in their body or be outside and be active. But, like I said, it's experiential. So it's cool, because sometimes I'll be talking about things with clients and we're like, well, instead of just talking about it, let's go do it right now. Yeah, right. So, like you know, if they're saying, well, we want to have this kind of sex life, I'm like, okay, great, let's go like, see what that looks like right now. So I'll have them go build an obstacle course of the kind of sex they want to be having together. Then they have to figure out how to get their two horses through the obstacle course and then, as they're doing it, I have to I get to see how they are with each other. Yeah Right, I get to see how they communicate, who takes the lead, what are the power dynamics, what happens if they get stuck, and the same stuff happens in their bedroom, yeah, so it's really interesting.
Ellecia: 45:55
Oh, that's fascinating, oh my gosh. Yeah, that's amazing, yeah.
Nicoletta: 46:00
Well, if you ever I don't know where you live, but if you ever come out to LA, let me know. We could do a horse therapy learning experience.
Ellecia: 46:07
Heck yeah, heck yeah. I'm in Seattle. I'm in Seattle. Basically, I'm skipping a jump. Yeah, there are horses up there too. So many, so many Amazing. Thank you for sharing that. That is very, very cool Absolutely I have. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would want to share with the listeners?
Nicoletta: 46:34
I loved the questions that you asked and if this hasn't been clear already, I would say the main key to this is community and finding for nominogamy stuff. It's just finding your people. So, whether that's through podcasts, whether that's through books, whether that's through munches and meetups and other things, it's so important to find your community, both to have as a check and balance for situations and your own behavior and people you're connecting with. But also community is sort of the key when we're dealing with any sort of like minority stress and there's still a lot of people who are anti-nominogamy and so if you're experiencing shame and stress and feelings around that, the key to that is community.
Ellecia: 47:21
Yes, yes, yes, I completely agree, definitely. I have one more question, and this one is doesn't go on the main episode. It's a segment called Just the Tip that we give to our Patreon subscribers at patreoncom slash nominogamous, and the question is what is your best or favorite sex tip? Thank you.
Nicoletta: 47:55
Thank you so much.
Ellecia: 47:57
This is amazing. I've loved chatting with you. I could continue to chat with you all day.
Nicoletta: 48:04
Thank you so much.
Ellecia: 48:05
Of course, of course, oh, how can people find you?
Nicoletta: 48:11
Yeah, well, not sure when this is coming out, but if you're listening and you're in the LA area, or if you want to listen online, I'm actually having a live pot, my first live podcast show coming up with three other sex podcasters. It's happening February 10th in Hollywood, but we also have an online option. You can find out more info on my Instagram, at slutsonschollers or at adliveeventbritecom To find me. I'm on Instagram, like I said, slutsonschollers, or therapy with Nicoletta. You can find my websites there as well.
Ellecia: 48:46
Amazing, thank you, and I'll put all that in the show notes so people can click things, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on.
Nicoletta: 48:55
Thank you for having me.