Radical Honesty and Responsibility in Non-Monogamous Relationships with Leslie Tavernier, Ep. 61
Get ready for some real talk about relationships in this episode of Nope! We're Not Monogamous with guest Lesley Tavernier. We dive deep into the concept of radical responsibility and how it can transform your non-monogamous relationships. Lesley shares her personal journey and sheds light on the importance of not relying on your partner for happiness. Discover how taking control of your own well-being can create a more harmonious and fulfilling connection. If you're looking for practical advice on personal growth and increasing happiness in non-monogamous relationships, this episode is a must-listen!
Leslie, a love coach, takes us on an enlightening journey through her personal experiences β from growing up in an unofficially non-monogamous household, living with strict monogamy, and finally embracing her true self in the realm of non-monogamy.
In this episode, you will be able to:
Explore the freedom and fulfillment of non-monogamous relationships.
Challenge societal expectations and create a relationship that works for you.
Take radical responsibility for your feelings and actions in relationships.
Learn strategies to navigate and overcome jealousy and insecurity.
Embrace change and personal growth through non-monogamy.
Discover new levels of communication, trust, and intimacy in your relationships.
Find happiness and fulfillment by embracing alternative relationship structures.
As we wrap up our heart-to-heart with Leslie, we address the elephant in the room β the radical responsibility each individual carries in a relationship. Speaking to those with self-esteem tied to their partner's actions, Leslie underscores the power of non-monogamous coaching. We uncover the courage required to admit attractions outside your relationship and the challenges of raising kids in a non-monogamous setting. So buckle up, and get ready for an eye-opening exploration of love and relationships beyond societal norms.
Do you feel like you could use some help with your relationships?
Get on a free call with Ellecia to see how she can help you move through the challenges of jealousy, fear, anxiety, and insecurities in a way that strengthens your relationships, deepens your trust, and communication, and leaves you feeling confident.
https://elleciapaine.podia.com/clarity-chat
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Credits
- Host/Producer: Ellecia Paine
- Editor/Producer: Danny Walters
- Hosted on Buzzsprout
Transcript:
00:00:02 - Ellecia Paine
That's the button.
00:00:04 - Lesley Tavernier
Awesome.
00:00:05 - Ellecia Paine
All right, so first, welcome to nope, we're not monogamous. I'm super happy you're here, and I'm excited to talk to you and hear about your work and experiences with non monogamy. I always love to start with, could you share a little bit about your personal journey into the world of non monogamy, or what drew you to explore the relationship styles?
00:00:44 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, I mean, I grew up in it. I didn't grow up with parents that were officially non monogamous. ENM wasn't part of the thing.
00:00:54 - Ellecia Paine
Right.
00:00:55 - Lesley Tavernier
So they were unofficially non monogamous. So my father, he was a man whore, for lack of a better term, and so I was his first child, but then he went on to have five other kids with, like, three other women besides my mother, so he was never monogamous. But if you were to ask him right now if he's monogamous, he'll say yes. And my mother, she has been with a married man for 30 years now. Over 30 years. I don't even know if he ever divorced his wife. And again, if you were to ask my mother or my stepdad if they believe in monogamy, they would say yes, but they've never actually practiced it.
00:01:51 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:01:52 - Lesley Tavernier
So that's how I started. I grew up in Catholicism and Christianity and religion, and what society was telling me was, monogamy is the way. But in my household, in my family, I wasn't really seeing monogamy.
00:02:11 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:02:12 - Lesley Tavernier
So that's where it started for me.
00:02:15 - Ellecia Paine
That's fascinating. I feel like probably a lot of people, if they look back at their childhood, could relate. Right. I know as an adult, I look back and went, oh, that's who that was.
00:02:33 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. So it was confusing because it's like, why are you teaching me monogamy? But you're not doing monogamy? But back then, they didn't even know the word polyamory.
00:02:47 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:02:47 - Lesley Tavernier
That didn't even exist. I didn't know that word until I became an adult.
00:02:51 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, I learned it about ten years ago. What is this? No, I don't want anything to do with that. That's weird. Now look at me.
00:03:05 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. Now it's a much more common term, but a lot of people don't know. They still don't know about polyamory.
00:03:14 - Speaker C
Yeah, totally.
00:03:18 - Ellecia Paine
Growing up, this is happening. And then have you personally always been non monogamous, or how did you feel that out?
00:03:29 - Lesley Tavernier
Okay. Yeah. When I started dating, I assumed that monogamy was going to be the thing, but pretty much every guy that I dated was cheating on me. And so I was like I mean, at first I was really angry and all of that, but then eventually I started saying to them, to each one, serial monogamy. Why don't you just tell me the truth? Why are we doing this? Why are you lying? Why don't you just say, I have multiple girlfriends. Why do we have to go through this crap? And so that also contributed to my journey, because I'm just like, why doesn't anyone want to tell the truth? This doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense. Okay. Then I got into a monogamous relationship, like an actual strict monogamy, and had two kids, and we were together for eleven years. It was strict monogamy. And then I found out that I didn't want to do monogamy anymore because I found myself attracted to other men. So I'm really summarizing a very long story.
00:04:57 - Ellecia Paine
Similarly, I was married, monogamously for 13 years, had two kids, and then was like, wait, what am I doing? This is silly for me, not for everyone, but for me, this isn't working.
00:05:09 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. And it was hard because people think that cheating is something that men do, men that want to go outside the relationship. But in my case, I wanted to go outside of the relationship. And I told the truth. I told my spouse the truth. We ended up arguing a lot because I didn't know polyamory. Nomad. I didn't know any of these terms. I was just trying my best to explain to him what I was feeling and he couldn't understand. And so we ended up separating because we didn't know how to even have an openly and ethically non monogamous relationship. We'd never even seen that.
00:05:57 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:06:01 - Ellecia Paine
No. Good example. I mean, we're getting more examples, but there haven't been a lot at that time.
00:06:07 - Lesley Tavernier
It was like, at the time when I was getting close to my breakup, that was when the scandal with Tavernier Woods came out. And everybody was talking about woods, like, how could he do this to his wife?
00:06:24 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:06:25 - Lesley Tavernier
And then I came across a woman on YouTube who was in an open marriage, and I heard her saying, like, Tavernier was his innocent. And I was like, what? Tavernier was his innocent. And that just took me down a rabbit hole. And then I got involved eventually. I got involved with a married man who is in an open marriage, and I'm still with him now.
00:06:58 - Ellecia Paine
I love that. I love that. So so I'm curious, how your work as a coach, did that come before or after this opening?
00:07:17 - Lesley Tavernier
After. I had no idea I would even want to do coaching. Coaching didn't really even exist online. Coaching didn't exist back then the way it is now. So that developed after because I eventually came to realize that there isn't most relationship coaches coach within the context of monogamy. Yeah. So there wasn't much available for me looking for a coach. That was a difficult thing because everything was about monogamy. And I'm like, I'm not doing monogamy. I'm not with a monogamous man, so how are you going to coach me?
00:08:00 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:08:04 - Ellecia Paine
Similarly, I hear so much of the relationship advice out there. It's really funny because so much of the relationship advice out there is so focused on monogamy and so focused on monogamy as a way to create security. However, all of the relationship advice that I give and that you are giving is just good relationship advice, regardless of the monogamous. Non monogamous is just good, healthy relationship advice, but not necessarily the other way around.
00:08:34 - Lesley Tavernier
It is, but it's important to make the distinction, because, again, the kind of advice that I would give to somebody who is dating a married man who isn't telling his wife about her, that's going to be different from a coach that's within the box of monogamy. The coach that believes in monogamy is going to tell her, you need to leave him. You shouldn't be messing with a married man. In fact, I just saw a clip the other day of Ian La Van Zant van Zant, however you pronounce it, and she was coaching a woman who had an affair with a married man and is pregnant with his child, and she just totally slut shamed that woman. Mmhmm.
00:09:25 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:09:27 - Ellecia Paine
That's especially hard for someone who, regardless of how they come into this situation, they're looking for help, support. Right. So I'm curious. I'm actually very curious about this. How would you coach someone who is dating a married man and his wife doesn't know?
00:09:49 - Lesley Tavernier
Wife doesn't know. Yeah, I get it. My mom did it.
00:09:54 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:09:55 - Lesley Tavernier
You know, first of all, I let them know you're innocent and he's innocent, because if you're holding on to guilt and I'm a bad girl and shame and all that crap, you're not really going to get anywhere. So you got to let go of the guilt and the shame, and I'm a bad girl. Let go of that. And then maybe we can start to get somewhere. We can start to have real conversations, and maybe, just maybe, he might tell the truth to his wife. But it's going to start with you being in integrity with yourself and telling the truth to yourself. I love this man, and I know he's married.
00:10:46 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:10:48 - Lesley Tavernier
And feel good about that.
00:10:52 - Ellecia Paine
I love that integrity with self. I wonder if that's where a lot of people get caught up in the like, do I tell them? Do I not tell them? If I see someone else who's doing this, do I say anything? And a lot of people don't know what the right thing is to do. And so I love this, like, being in integrity with yourself.
00:11:19 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. People aren't bad for loving somebody who is already married. That's not a bad thing. It's just that this society, this civilization is structured in such a way that unless you're doing monogamy, you're considered bad or there's something wrong with you. But there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with you. It's just a structure that has you believing that you're bad or wrong.
00:11:53 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:11:57 - Ellecia Paine
I wonder the thought that comes to mind for me right now is the idea of ethical non monogamy. What are ethics and where do they come from, and what structure are they? You know what I mean? Who decides what is ethical. And then something that's ethical in one culture may not be maybe unethical in another culture. And so it's not an inherent we're not born with this knowledge of what's right.
00:12:30 - Lesley Tavernier
Totally. And that's the thing. Yeah. Who decides what's ethical? Because I've had so many women that follow my page say to me that they want their man to tell them the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. If you are attracted to other women, if you're sleeping with another woman, if you want to sleep with another woman, I want you to tell me. But I don't really believe those women, because sometimes when you hear the truth, you really can't handle the truth.
00:13:06 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:13:08 - Lesley Tavernier
Especially when your spouse comes to you and says, you know what? I want to sleep with someone else. A lot of people can't handle that truth, yet they'll say, I want nothing but the truth.
00:13:23 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:13:24 - Lesley Tavernier
No, you don't. You don't really want the truth.
00:13:27 - Ellecia Paine
I want the truth if it's the one that I think that I want him to say.
00:13:31 - Lesley Tavernier
Correct. So if he comes to you and he says, you know what? I enjoy looking at porn every day, and I go to the strip club and I pay for sex workers. Do you want to hear that? Most women don't.
00:13:50 - Ellecia Paine
I wonder why.
00:13:52 - Lesley Tavernier
Because then they immediately get insecure. Wait a second. Does she fuck you better than me? Is her pussy better than mine? Is she prettier than me? Is she better than me? It must be that, because why do you want to have sex with her? There must be something better than her about than me.
00:14:12 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:14:13 - Lesley Tavernier
Our mind immediately goes, there something must be wrong with me, or something must be better about her for him to want to have sex with her. And that's not necessarily the case.
00:14:25 - Ellecia Paine
No. That is such a monogamous mindset of, like, I must be the best choice in the whole world. And same when we're, like, we're looking for partners. Right. I have to pick the very best one. I have to choose the best one. If things don't work out, then I clearly didn't pick the best one.
00:14:43 - Lesley Tavernier
Right. Correct.
00:14:45 - Ellecia Paine
And so they must be the best in the whole wide world. Otherwise it was wrong or there's something wrong with me.
00:14:54 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. Totally.
00:14:56 - Ellecia Paine
And that's impossible to overcome. Not to overcome, but.
00:15:03 - Lesley Tavernier
To have work. Yeah. We're in serious denial as a society, as a collective. From what I have heard, pornhub is the number one website in the world. Okay. Pornhub.
00:15:22 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah.
00:15:23 - Lesley Tavernier
So, like, I don't know. I think a lot of women are seriously naive if they think that their man only wants sex with them and only them for the rest of his life. That's naivety.
00:15:44 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:15:45 - Ellecia Paine
And vice versa. I never wanted that.
00:15:50 - Lesley Tavernier
I thought I would want that. I thought I would. But I ended up still wanting to have sex with other men.
00:16:02 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:16:03 - Ellecia Paine
Because we're like human animals with animal desires.
00:16:12 - Lesley Tavernier
My thing was a little bit different. Even though I was in a committed relationship, I didn't know how to enjoy sex. So I was like numb. Sexually numb. And as I wrote about in one of my posts, which triggered a whole lot of women, which is how you found me, I said it was a non monogamous man, and I knew he was non monogamous, and he ignited me.
00:16:36 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:16:37 - Lesley Tavernier
Like, my libido came alive just from being around this man. And he was most definitely non monogamous.
00:16:46 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:16:47 - Ellecia Paine
What did you call that? A wild man.
00:16:50 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. That's the term I like to use now. I'm saying dark, masculine. It changes from time to time.
00:16:56 - Ellecia Paine
I like them both.
00:16:57 - Lesley Tavernier
But yeah, a lot of times the man that a woman is most sexually attracted to isn't Mr. Wright.
00:17:08 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:17:09 - Lesley Tavernier
Okay. People have a hard time hearing that. They think like, no, if I really want to fuck him, he must be Mr. Wright. That's not true. That's not true.
00:17:23 - Ellecia Paine
Why is that?
00:17:26 - Lesley Tavernier
Because marriage and raising children, it takes a whole different skill set to fucking. They're not the same thing. Yeah, but just because I'm totally wet for you, that doesn't mean that you're going to be the best husband and father. And just because you're an amazing husband and father doesn't mean that I'm going to be totally wet for you or that I'm always going to be wet for you.
00:17:56 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:17:58 - Lesley Tavernier
They don't always go together. In fact, many times they don't go together.
00:18:03 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:18:06 - Ellecia Paine
That is something that I work with. A lot of people will come and say two things. One, the fear. Like, my partner, my spouse is going to like somebody else better be more attracted to somebody else. I want to do this because I want the thing. But also, what if right, but then the other thing that happens is I'm so into my new partner that things are just shutting down sexually with my longer term partner, with the one I'm at home making a house with. Right.
00:18:46 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, totally. That's so normal. That's so normal. Because with the new partner, you're getting what do they call it? It's like a hormonal. Like it's a hormonal rush. It's a thrill.
00:19:04 - Ellecia Paine
Drugs.
00:19:06 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. So you feel high, but he's not going to replace your long term partner.
00:19:13 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:19:16 - Lesley Tavernier
Your long term partner is not there to make you feel high.
00:19:21 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:19:22 - Lesley Tavernier
We have to understand that. Yeah.
00:19:26 - Ellecia Paine
I love that. That was so good.
00:19:32 - Lesley Tavernier
You can't base I mean, one thing that I do like about what do you call it? Arranged marriage. Because I've met couples that were their marriage was arranged. They understand that marriage is about duty. It's not about passionate sex.
00:19:58 - Ellecia Paine
Fascinating.
00:20:00 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:20:03 - Ellecia Paine
I wonder so many people have this I mean, it's really media. Right. We have these stories that it's everything. Both and you have all the passionate sex, all the compatibility, all of the care and support all of the co parenting and he cooks and yeah.
00:20:26 - Lesley Tavernier
And pays for everything too.
00:20:28 - Ellecia Paine
And pays for everything.
00:20:29 - Lesley Tavernier
He's rich. Yeah. It's Disney. It's not real. And that's the issue. We could have more love if we were more accepting of what is instead of trying to have this fantasy of this perfect man and this perfect woman for the rest of our lives. Your husband. Yeah. He very well may find the other woman more sexually appealing than you, but that doesn't mean he doesn't love you.
00:21:08 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:21:09 - Lesley Tavernier
That doesn't mean he doesn't value you. That doesn't mean that you're not the most important woman in his life. You but we think importance is based on sex.
00:21:25 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:21:26 - Lesley Tavernier
But that's just not true.
00:21:30 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, we definitely do that. Like, hold sex as the standard.
00:21:38 - Lesley Tavernier
Like.
00:21:38 - Ellecia Paine
The measuring stick of the value of the relationship or how good the relationship is or how much love is there.
00:21:44 - Lesley Tavernier
Correct.
00:21:49 - Ellecia Paine
How do you recommend people shift that?
00:21:54 - Lesley Tavernier
Oh, man, that's a big question.
00:22:00 - Ellecia Paine
I know.
00:22:03 - Lesley Tavernier
We got to get, like, radically honest. Yeah, radically honest. When I was a sex worker, people get pissed off when I say this, but it's true. 90% of my clients were married or they had a long term committed girlfriend, so these weren't men that weren't getting sex, though. Some were somewhere in a sexless marriage. But in every case, when I would ask them, do you want to leave your wife? Do you want to divorce your wife? They were like, no, why would I want to do that? I'm never leaving my wife. I think a lot of men understand the difference. They may not be saying it publicly because they want to protect their image and whatnot, but I think men do understand that just because I really want to fuck this woman, that doesn't mean that she's my wife.
00:23:11 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:23:15 - Ellecia Paine
Do you think there's a big difference between men and women when it comes.
00:23:19 - Speaker C
To that.
00:23:25 - Lesley Tavernier
To wanting to have sex outside of marriage?
00:23:28 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:23:32 - Lesley Tavernier
I think men feel less guilt and shame than women.
00:23:38 - Ellecia Paine
That makes sense.
00:23:42 - Lesley Tavernier
Because the whole entire sex trade, it's very much dependent on men as recurring clients. Maybe they feel a little bit bad or a little bit of guilt, but that's not stopping them. Whereas I think women feel more like, oh, I'm being a slut, I'm no longer wife material.
00:24:14 - Ellecia Paine
What a mind fuck we've done to ourselves.
00:24:17 - Lesley Tavernier
Majorly. It's insane.
00:24:22 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, it really is. When you step out of it, right, when you're not all emotionally involved in it and you step back and you go, what's logical about this? It's kind of mind blowing.
00:24:35 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. Embracing non monogamy, polyamory, open, relating, whatever terms you want to use, has helped me to accept and love my parents more, because I grew up with this idea that if you have multiple baby mothers, you're a man whore and you're not to be respected. But that's my father.
00:25:08 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:25:09 - Lesley Tavernier
So I can't respect my father.
00:25:12 - Speaker C
Right?
00:25:13 - Lesley Tavernier
I have to hate my father. No, I'm not going to do that and I'm not going to hate my mother. I love my parents but unfortunately they were raised in the mind fuck.
00:25:29 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:25:34 - Ellecia Paine
I'm so excited to see what our kids do with this. I'm so excited to see the next couple of generations and how relationships shift. So exciting.
00:25:49 - Lesley Tavernier
It'll be really interesting. Yeah, because I didn't grow up with the internet and smartphones and all of that, whereas now they have these youngsters, they have immediate and 24/7 access to porn and only fans and all these other things like it's there in abundance. So yeah, it will be interesting to see how things turn out for the next generation.
00:26:16 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:26:17 - Ellecia Paine
And I'll add they have access to community and support of people who have similar thoughts, similar feelings, similar identities that we didn't have. It was conform.
00:26:30 - Lesley Tavernier
Totally.
00:26:31 - Ellecia Paine
Right. We were always trying to conform to whatever was around us, whatever was available to fit into society. And they're able to just in the palm of their hand, create their own societies and their own cultures and their own communities.
00:26:44 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. That's exciting.
00:26:47 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, it really is. It could go really good or really bad.
00:26:53 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, it could go both ways but yeah, it's changing. Information is available like never before and so yeah, I think we'll have more polyamory, non monogamy, open relating. I think we're going to have a lot more of that.
00:27:09 - Ellecia Paine
I love it. One of the things you said earlier that I absolutely loved was radical honesty. That more of us need to be radically honest. And we talk a lot about communication, especially working with relationships and communication, communication, communication. And I always tell people, like, throw that word out the window because you don't know what it means. Every couple comes to me and goes, we need to work on our communication. I'm like, well, you just said that to me very clearly, you're communicating fine. And now let's work on getting really honest.
00:27:48 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, that's a tough one. I found that to be tough because just even in the online space I came into this really naive from the beginning. I just openly started talking about sex work and being with a married man and all these different things, just thinking people would just be interested. And I had to find out the hard way that, oh man, people don't want to hear this shit. Like, this is super triggering.
00:28:16 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:28:21 - Ellecia Paine
It'S wild. The first time I had someone on social media, multiple people react to me in a really wild way, like being upset with me for just talking about my life. It felt like being in high school and being bullied. It was such a contraction that I had to stop. I had to get off all of my phone, my computer, I had to spend a couple of days like, wait, actually I'm okay.
00:28:50 - Lesley Tavernier
It's a lot. And to receive that from women, like progressive minded women, spiritual women. The slut shaming is out of this world.
00:29:07 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:29:09 - Ellecia Paine
It's really sad. It really is. I want to ask you about jealousy, right? I want to ask you about, I don't know, your experience with jealousy or how you navigate jealousy, how that comes up in your life. It's one of the big ones, right?
00:29:34 - Lesley Tavernier
Monogamy really exacerbates jealousy. Because when I was my second boyfriend, so I was like 18 or 19 and I was at his apartment and then he left for a while. He left me there by myself and he said he'd be back in like 2 hours or whatever. So I do what a lot of women do. I went through his stuff and I found clear evidence that he had another girlfriend. And not only that, but that she was pregnant with his child.
00:30:10 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, no.
00:30:10 - Lesley Tavernier
And I fucking lost my mind. I completely vandalized, completely vandalized his apartment. Luckily, he didn't call the cops on me. But that's what I learned. That's what I understood at the time. That if he's cheating on you, you get to fuck him up.
00:30:33 - Speaker C
Right.
00:30:36 - Lesley Tavernier
And I thought that was justified. This is around the time when Waiting to Exhale was popular and the wife found that the husband was cheating and then she put his whole car on fire.
00:30:50 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:30:52 - Lesley Tavernier
So my understanding at the time was, like, if he cheats, I get to fuck him up. So I've evolved since then.
00:31:06 - Ellecia Paine
This was an opportunity for growth.
00:31:13 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. I mean, when people find out they've been cheated on, they get ugly. Yeah, they get real ugly. Now in polyamory, polyamory doesn't solve jealousy. The jealousy is still going to happen in polyamory because we get caught up in comparisonitis. Even though I was with a man who I knew had a wife and I knew had other girlfriends, I was still of the mindset that I'm competing with these women to be number one or number two only to his wife. So that can be a shit show. That can be a real shit show. Because I learned that love means that you better be number one or something's wrong with you. If he's enjoying sex with his other girlfriend more than me, then what does that say about me? Maybe I'm not pretty enough. Maybe I'm not good enough in bed. Maybe I don't suck his dick good enough. It's just all this comparisonitis happening. So I don't think you'll ever be able to totally put an end to jealousy because, I mean, we're humans, we feel things. But the way to navigate it so that it doesn't fuck you up is to recognize that the only reason you're feeling this is because you're caught in comparisonitis. You're comparing yourself to another woman or you're comparing yourself to another man and you're coming up short. In your mind, you're coming up short. And instead of addressing that belief that you're coming up short, you want to attack somebody else, so why not deal with your own insecurity? Use jealousy as a catalyst to work on your insecurity, on your sense of unworthiness.
00:33:23 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:33:31 - Ellecia Paine
That'S where it is. I love that there's the comparison and then the competition, we're pitted against each other. I found knowing the people that I think I'm competing with, the more I get to know them, the less I feel like I'm in competition with them, the more I'm like, oh, we're here doing the same thing. Even the ones that I don't like a lot, I still feel like even if I'm like, I'm not going to be their best friend. But I can relate. I don't feel competition anymore when I get to know them.
00:34:04 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, well, for me, I still felt competition. I was a competitive bitch, but I had a lot of self esteem issues insecurities about my bedroom performance. So if I knew or sensed that this other woman is way more orgasmic than me, that was difficult for me to accept.
00:34:30 - Ellecia Paine
That was a hard button for me too. Oh, she squirts.
00:34:35 - Lesley Tavernier
Cool.
00:34:38 - Ellecia Paine
I'm glad that that's your fantasy that I don't fulfill, correct?
00:34:43 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, it's confronting, but eventually you come to realize that I don't have to be the best in bed.
00:34:54 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:34:56 - Lesley Tavernier
That's just a narrative. Like, I don't have to be the best in bed.
00:35:04 - Ellecia Paine
For a long time, I would tell myself, I don't have to be the best at this. Actually, for me, it was often, okay, I might not be the prettiest or the skinniest or the funniest, but I am the best in bed. So I would soothe myself with that. I'm pretty sure I am.
00:35:20 - Lesley Tavernier
Right.
00:35:21 - Ellecia Paine
Or something else. If someone else had that, then I'd be like, but I'm way funnier, so that's fine. It'll be fine. Right. So I found for a long time I would soothe those insecurities with, but I am the best in some area for sure. Which also it was like a good band Aid, right? Like this temporary kind of soothing fix. But ultimately I'm not the best at anything ever. In the whole world. There's always people who have something better. So I had to find, like, I am perfectly exactly who I need to be for me. Right. I am doing the best I can. And that better be good enough for you.
00:36:11 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. He's choosing to be with you for a reason. Yeah. So there's something about you that he's really into, but it doesn't mean you're the best in every category. That's ridiculous.
00:36:29 - Ellecia Paine
That's fun. Yeah, that's one of the things I said. I knew I didn't want to be monogamous, but then I had to confront the jealousy and possessiveness that I've always had ever since I very first I think I was like twelve when I had my first kiss. I was like, and now I am jealous and he's mine.
00:36:50 - Speaker C
Yeah, well, that didn't work.
00:36:54 - Lesley Tavernier
I can imagine. Yeah. We use monogamy this is my opinion. I think that a lot of people, they base their self worth on their ability to attract a monogamous partner. Because I have actually had a client like this. She was engaged to be married, and then, like, two months before the wedding, her fiance cheated on her, so they called the wedding off. But one of the things that she said was that him being strictly monogamous made her feel more high value. Because he only wants me.
00:37:50 - Ellecia Paine
I'm special and chosen. Those are two big words that I hear a lot. I want to feel special. I want to feel chosen.
00:38:00 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. Only want me and nobody else but me forever. So that way my self esteem is boosted. And so if you cheat or you're looking at porn or whatever, there goes my self esteem.
00:38:21 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:38:24 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, it's so tied up in other people's actions.
00:38:29 - Speaker C
It's hard.
00:38:32 - Lesley Tavernier
Very. Hence the need for non monogamous coaching. Monogamous coaching can't address this. Yeah, it can't.
00:38:47 - Ellecia Paine
That's true. I wonder. Okay, I'm going to ask you this. What is something okay, I like to ask this on every episode when I remember. What is something that anybody can do for free to have a healthier, non monogamous relationship?
00:39:10 - Lesley Tavernier
What's one thing they can or anything? Yeah, that's such an interesting question for me. I believe in taking radical responsibility for your well being. Your partner yes. Is not responsible for your well being. He's not or she's not? You are. It's not his job to make you happy. I mean, he could try, but ultimately, that's not up to him. That's up to you. So if he didn't text you back within 24 hours and you're having a nervous breakdown, that's not his problem. That's your problem. Why are you having a nervous breakdown? His text is that important to you that you can't allow yourself to be happy unless you receive his text message? That's your problem.
00:40:18 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:40:22 - Ellecia Paine
That'S really good.
00:40:24 - Lesley Tavernier
If we took radical responsibility for our well being and our peace, we'd have way less arguments and drama, whether you're in a monogamous or non monogamous relationship.
00:40:42 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:40:45 - Ellecia Paine
I have a metamorpho who uses that a lot. Like, is this a me problem or a you problem? Is this something I need to work on with you? Or is this something I need to go work on on my own?
00:40:54 - Speaker C
Yeah, it's so good.
00:40:56 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, I practiced that because dealing with a non monogamous man who had a multitude of women, he wasn't the type to text me back right away. His texts were few and far between, and it took me quite a while to realize that, oh, wait, he's not responsible for my happiness. I can't say, Well, I'm sad and I'm crying, and it's your fault because you didn't text me within the time frame that I wanted you to text me. So it's your fault that I'm unhappy right now. That doesn't work.
00:41:43 - Ellecia Paine
No. I can hear people right. Now hearing that and going, well, then I just need to go text someone else, or I need to go I need to find another person to fill that space.
00:41:57 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, well, you can. I mean, you can text as many men or women as you want. Sky's the limit. But I tend to get women who are love addicts, so they get involved with a man who fucks them really exceptionally well and they become addicted to him. So, yeah, they could text 10, 15, 20 other men, but they're not him.
00:42:26 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:42:27 - Lesley Tavernier
So they really want his text.
00:42:33 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:42:37 - Ellecia Paine
So what do they do? What do you tell them to do?
00:42:42 - Lesley Tavernier
Take radical responsibility for your.
00:42:48 - Ellecia Paine
I hear that. And I'm like, yes, absolutely. And I feel like a lot of people hear that and they're like, what does that even mean? I don't understand. We aren't taught that.
00:42:57 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, I'm not going to tell women to bypass the pain. Feel the fucking pain. Feel it. Like, yes, you're very sad. You feel rejected. You feel abandoned. You don't know when you're going to hear from him again. You don't know what the hell is going on. Your anxiety is through the roof. Feel that.
00:43:17 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:43:18 - Lesley Tavernier
Feel that. Fucking feel it. And then when you get all the emotions out, then process it. Okay, where is this coming from? What the fuck is this? What is going on? Why is this having such a major effect on me? Why am I at the mercy of this one, man? What is that? Let's dig into that and then transmute it. Shift it, turn it into power. Okay. I really wanted to receive a text from this man. Why? Because I feel orgasmic when this man texts me. Okay, well, how can you feel orgasmic even without his text?
00:44:14 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:44:15 - Lesley Tavernier
You got to feel the pain, transmute the pain into pleasure. Then you become more orgasmic. Then you're not dependent on his text, and that's when he's actually more likely to text you.
00:44:26 - Ellecia Paine
That's when you're fucking hot.
00:44:30 - Lesley Tavernier
I'm so orgasmic I don't even need your text. Yeah, that's when he's going to text.
00:44:36 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:44:38 - Ellecia Paine
Yes, absolutely. 100%.
00:44:43 - Lesley Tavernier
But men can feel that. They can feel when a woman is depending on them for their happiness.
00:44:55 - Ellecia Paine
For.
00:44:55 - Lesley Tavernier
Their sexual pleasure, for their well being. And that's a turn off to just about every man on this planet, because it's like, oh, fuck, now she's hounding me. Now she's having a nervous breakdown. This is too much.
00:45:20 - Ellecia Paine
That is yes, that's what I see.
00:45:25 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. Just because he fucked you real good doesn't mean that you get to depend on him for your well being. He just helped you to feel what you could have been feeling all along. But because of various traumas and this and that, you became numb. And then here he comes, the catalyst. And now you're diplomatized. Now you're just like, oh, my God, it's his penis. But no, you had that capability all along. He just helped you to remember it.
00:46:00 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:46:01 - Lesley Tavernier
That's another thing, too. That's why I said in my post that it was a non monogamous man that activated me. It was important for me to say non monogamous because I wasn't looking for a relationship with that man. I was already in a relationship. I wasn't looking for anything. I was just living my life. And then I met him and then I was like, oh my God, what just happened here? It's like lightning struck. But I didn't want him to be my husband or boyfriend.
00:46:31 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:46:32 - Lesley Tavernier
I just wanted to fuck him. And that's what I told him. I just want to fuck you.
00:46:38 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:46:41 - Ellecia Paine
That's so good.
00:46:46 - Lesley Tavernier
Is there some men? Some men are their job is to fuck you.
00:46:50 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:46:51 - Lesley Tavernier
That's it.
00:46:54 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:46:54 - Ellecia Paine
And it doesn't have to be the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.
00:46:57 - Lesley Tavernier
No.
00:47:00 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, I like those ones.
00:47:05 - Lesley Tavernier
But most women, especially because of monogamous culture, we get the real good dick and then we think, okay, I got to turn him into my husband.
00:47:14 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:47:15 - Ellecia Paine
Lock that down.
00:47:16 - Lesley Tavernier
I got to possess him. I got to make him mine. And that's where things get real crazy.
00:47:23 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:47:26 - Ellecia Paine
Through all the drama and chaos.
00:47:29 - Lesley Tavernier
Majorly.
00:47:30 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:47:32 - Ellecia Paine
Is there anything that you want to share with the listeners that I haven't asked you?
00:47:40 - Lesley Tavernier
I think you touched on everything, but I would say if your spouse or your girlfriend or boyfriend comes to you and they tell you that they are attracted to someone else, don't throw a hissy fit. Just hear them out. Hear what they have to say. Have some understanding, have some compassion. Because bringing up this type of conversation with your spouse is not easy. It's really hard. It's scary. It's uncomfortable. Most of us have never seen it modeled. We've never seen our parents have that type of conversation. So we don't even know how to do it. So if your spouse is courageous enough to come to you and say, hey, look, I don't really know why I'm feeling this way, but I'm attracted to this other person. I still love you, but I'm attracted to this other person. Appreciate the fact that they are speaking their truth. That takes courage. That takes vulnerability. I'm just so tired of people saying, well, why didn't you just tell the truth? Why didn't you just tell the truth from day one? Well, here's the thing. You don't always know from day one that you're going to want to do non monogamy. I didn't know from day one. I was eleven years in when I was like, oh shit, I want to have sex with this other man. I didn't know from day one. So we have to understand that people change over time. Things happen. Just because the first year, second year, third year was amazing doesn't mean that year ten is amazing. Year ten might be hell, especially if you have kids raising kids that's not a joke. Raising kids is hard work. So if you think that things are going to just be the same for, like, 2030 years and your spouse is not going to be attracted to anyone else and you're not going to be attracted to anyone else, that's delusion.
00:49:40 - Speaker C
Yeah. I love that.
00:49:47 - Ellecia Paine
I have so many people that message me and say, hey, how do I tell my partner that I want?
00:49:53 - Lesley Tavernier
I would say the first thing is do your best to assure them that you do love them and you are committed and you're not going to leave.
00:50:01 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:50:02 - Lesley Tavernier
You're probably going to have to spend a few weeks just reassuring them that you're not going anywhere. You love them. They are your priority. And this other person, you just want to have an experience with them.
00:50:17 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:50:20 - Lesley Tavernier
But they're not going to replace you.
00:50:26 - Ellecia Paine
So good. Thank you. I have one more question for you. This one doesn't go on the main podcast. It's only for our supporters of the show on patreon@patreon.com, not monogamous. And it's called Just the Tip, and it is what is your favorite or best sex tip?
00:50:49 - Lesley Tavernier
Oh, wow.
00:50:51 - Ellecia Paine
Shift gears a little bit there.
00:50:53 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah, I wasn't expecting that question. For me, slowing down a lot. I did not know how to have slow sex until well into my 30s.
00:51:18 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah.
00:51:20 - Lesley Tavernier
All I knew was porn, porn sex, which is what I tried to emulate to the best of my ability, and there's some pleasure to be had in that. But the deeper pleasure came from slowing down and learning to enjoy the simple things, the subtlety, breathing slowly, like really taking your time. That's what makes sex beautiful. It's the little things. It's not necessarily the hardcore stuff. It's not oral sex and intercourse. It's the touch, the sound of your voice, your scent, just like little things. When you learn to appreciate the little things, then the whole entire sexual experience is beautiful. And that's something you don't see in porn.
00:52:29 - Ellecia Paine
That's perfect. That's so perfect.
00:52:32 - Lesley Tavernier
Thank you.
00:52:33 - Ellecia Paine
I love it. Slow sex is so engaging for all of the senses, which is really what you want. Like, everything online, instead of just like a quick, o.
00:52:53 - Lesley Tavernier
Let go of judgment. That's another thing that I didn't mention. You can't really connect with someone sexually if you're holding on to judgment. I learned that through doing sex work. When I first started sex work, I didn't orgasm, but that was because I had judgments about my clients and myself. And once I let go of judgment, then I started orgasming with all of my clients.
00:53:31 - Ellecia Paine
Amazing. That's fascinating. I love that.
00:53:39 - Lesley Tavernier
How'd you let go of judge? What's that?
00:53:43 - Ellecia Paine
How'd you let go of judgment?
00:53:45 - Lesley Tavernier
That's a big question.
00:53:48 - Ellecia Paine
I like those.
00:53:50 - Lesley Tavernier
That's a really big question. I don't even know if I have a quick answer for that. I just had to because this is the thing. As humans, we can enjoy sex with pretty much anybody I mean, that's just the truth. We think it's about romance and, oh, we're in love, and no, we're just sexual beings. And so I was like, my clients, they're just sexual beings. They just want sexual connection. And that's not a bad thing. Society says it's a bad thing, but it's not bad. So I don't have any judgment of my clients for coming to me for sex. And I let go of this idea that, oh, I shouldn't actually orgasm with them because, what the hell? They're your clients. They don't give a fuck about you. How are you supposed to orgasm with them? I had to let go of that. Like no, that's not true. They do care. They do care about me. And I can allow myself to connect with my clients. That's one example.
00:55:05 - Ellecia Paine
Meaning out.
00:55:06 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. Oh, my God. Nobody cares about sex workers. That's not true.
00:55:11 - Speaker C
Yeah, that's not true.
00:55:13 - Lesley Tavernier
I had really great connections, but men in general, if I'm carrying around, like, oh, he's a dog, he's a jerk. He did me wrong. He lied to me. I don't trust him, he rejected me. All of these things that interferes with your sexual pleasure.
00:55:32 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:55:36 - Lesley Tavernier
And so we have millions of you see them on social media every day complaining about narcissist and all of that. You're blocking your sexual pleasure.
00:55:47 - Speaker C
Yeah.
00:55:51 - Ellecia Paine
Amazing. That's beautiful. Thank you.
00:55:54 - Lesley Tavernier
If you love men, then love all men. Love all men. Non monogamous, monogamous, married, whatever. Love all men. That's how you love all men?
00:56:08 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, yeah.
00:56:13 - Lesley Tavernier
I love all men. Genuinely.
00:56:15 - Ellecia Paine
That's fantastic. They need it. Yeah, I think more men need to hear that for sure.
00:56:27 - Lesley Tavernier
Yeah. Because men feel like they can only be loved if they're monogamous.
00:56:31 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, yeah. There's so much meaning in all other shows that people hold. Oh, thank you so much. This is fantastic. I appreciate this conversation so much.