Polywise - A Deeper Dive Into Navigating Open Relationships with Jessica Fern and David Cooley

Polyamory and non-monogamous relationships often elicit curiosity. To understand them better, I recently sat down with Jessica Fern and David Cooley, two acclaimed figures in the field. The couple, who have been exploring polyamory for 21 years, have authored the books PolySecure and PolyWise, aimed at helping others understand the dynamics of ethical non-monogamy.

They discuss how they've navigated their relationships, managed property together, and maintained relationships outside their home. They highlight the transformative power of non-monogamy, but also emphasize that this journey is not just about relationships, but also about personal growth and nurturing emotional intelligence.

Emotional intelligence plays a key role in how we interact with others. Fern and Cooley unpack the importance of communicating feelings and needs, especially when they become overwhelming. They also share insights into drama triangle involvement and strategies to enhance emotional and relational intelligence. The duo also discuss practices to cultivate intimacy, the importance of curiosity in conflict resolution, and innovative techniques such as breathwork and restorative justice circles.

The journey of co-writing a book was another significant aspect of their conversation. They discuss the intellectual and creative process of unpacking and developing ideas, and how they have been able to take each other's advice and critiques. They emphasize the importance of accountability in their creative endeavor, sharing that writing their books was also a form of healing.

Polyamory and non-monogamy are not just about the physical relationships, but also about identity and relationship choice. Fern and Cooley explore the complexities of this aspect, discussing the power of frames and metaphors in public decision-making and the effects of not living out one's orientation. They emphasize that the identities people choose are legitimate and discuss the best strategies for fostering intimacy.

The couple also shed light on the struggles of becoming ethically non-monogamous. They discuss managing jealousy and attachment wounds to reach autonomy and freedom. They share how they've used techniques like breathwork, journaling, and having a 'North Star' to navigate these struggles.

This podcast episode offers an enlightening insight into the world of non-monogamy, providing practical advice and wisdom from two experts in the field. The conversations delve into the nuances of ethical non-monogamy, the challenges and triumphs, and the strategies that can help individuals and couples navigate this unique relationship dynamic successfully.

Trnscript:

00:00:03
            

There we go. That's what we want. Amazing. Awesome. Okay, Jessica and David, welcome to nope, we're not monogamous.        

00:00:15
            

I am. You're welcome. Thank you. I'm so excited to chat with you guys. I've been a big fan of Jessica's work for a few years now.        

00:00:25
            

It was really cool when I read Polysecure, I was like it was so validating. I was like, oh, my God, this is what I've been doing. Converting all this monogamous stuff to non monogamy and now reading Polywise, I'm like, yes. So good.        

00:00:43
            

I'm excited to I've already started putting some of your restorative justice framework into into action with some of my clients, which is I'm very excited about. So anyways, welcome.        

00:01:00
            

Yeah.        

00:01:04
            

Okay, so here's the deal. No, we're not monogamous. It's not an educational podcast.        

00:01:11
            

Here's what I was doing. I was running into all of this information that was like, Poly 101, non monogamy 101. And I was like, yeah, but how did you figure that out? I wanted to know what people were actually doing before they gave you the advice that was really good, that they didn't necessarily follow themselves. And so I just love to chat with people about their experiences and their lives and how they come to be giving this great information and advice.        

00:01:43
            

Right. So I would love to hear yeah, thank you. I would just love to hear it's. Like, there's so much good information, but what'd you really do. Right, right.        

00:01:59
            

So I would love to hear about your, uh, what non monogamy means to you, your relationship philosophies. What do you got going on?        

00:02:13
            

Why don't you start, Jess? Oh, OK. We're both pointing at each other, as in, like, what do we have going on in this? Yeah, yeah. You give a little bit in your book.        

00:02:25
            

I love that you give a little bit of your relationship history. But yeah. Where are you at now and how'd you get there? Yeah. Well, I'll answer that as us together.        

00:02:36
            

Right. And it's been a 21 year journey, being in each other's lives. Yeah. And we've taken many forms for each other. We met as classmates at a residential massage program.        

00:02:53
            

We had a little romantic thing initially, and then we were really good friends for a while, for several years. We then got married. We had a son. We opened up. We were polyamorous together.        

00:03:09
            

We got divorced. We lived apart. We now live together right now. In this iteration, we live together. We are life partners.        

00:03:21
            

We're creative partners with this project, being co authors. We kind of live in this house. We have a few acres, so we run a property together as well. Yeah. And it's a sweet spot.        

00:03:33
            

And we would be, like, poly intimates. And each of us have partners that live outside of the house that we have relationships with. That we all have relationships with. So it's a pretty nice moment for us. And there's been a lot of ups and downs not easy moments in between.        

00:04:01
            

This is so fascinating.        

00:04:05
            

We're kind of told that relationships are kind of all or nothing. Right. That's what our culture is like. All or nothing. Like, you can't be friends with your ex, or you can't be business partners, or if you get back together, it's now forever.        

00:04:21
            

Everything's so black and white. And I love this flow you guys have had and that you're sharing. Yeah. I think it's taken work for us to realize, why throw the baby out with the bathwater? There's a lot of beauty in our connection and our relationship and our compatibility.        

00:04:38
            

And just because some things don't work, why do we have to throw all of it out? Yeah. And we started with a semi non conventional approach. Even when we were talking about getting the possibility of being married, a big part of that conversation was recognizing that there were elements of conventional marriage that didn't work for us. And so we were focused on a lot of things like gender equality and what does that mean?        

00:05:07
            

Like, how do we deconstruct sort of some of the fixed gender roles that are typical? We also talked about the recognition that getting married for us wasn't necessarily a forever thing and that that felt good, actually. Right. Some of that was my avoidance stuff, for sure. But there was also a component, I think, that Wisely knew that we would.        

00:05:31
            

And I think we framed it this way in moments of we may grow to the point where being together in this marriage doesn't make sense anymore, and can that be okay and not seen as sort of a fatal thing or a failure. Right, exactly. So those elements were there from the beginning. I think we've both had a lot of fortune to have been exposed to thoughts and ideas that have allowed us to have kind of a semi non conventional approach and that's become more and more non conventional as we've gone on. But when we met, there was a lot of that possibility.        

00:06:06
            

Oh, I love that. Thank you. I love that. My husband and I have been together ten years, and we've never been monogamous because we were both married previously right. And went, well, that's not what we want to do again.        

00:06:17
            

And so the idea of intentionally building a relationship that allows for growth and change and evolution is amazing. Yeah. I think the way we're framing it makes it sound as if sort of we set ourselves up for this really smooth ride, and in some ways we didn't, but in other ways we definitely didn't. We hit a lot of walls that many conventional relationships or marriages do hit, and that really got exposed when we opened. Yeah.        

00:06:51
            

What would you say was what were the biggest challenges when you opened up?        

00:06:58
            

Yeah. I would say our kind of becoming face to face with some of the deeply rooted codependent patterns that we had that we had never really seen as codependent or were framing as codependent. It was kind of just like, Holy shit, we've been doing that. Wow. And so there was two layers of that.        

00:07:19
            

Well, actually three major layers. One was I've been dealing with a relatively severe form of autoimmunity since I was 19. Right. And so I've had compromised health our whole relationship, and that's come and gone in different levels of intensity. And our son was born he's now eight, right after he was born, which that's a gauntlet to go through.        

00:07:48
            

That's a total initiation for any relationship. Right. It's like, even if you are monogamous, to go through having your first child is just such a process that can rock the foundation of any relationship. But then, right as that was happening, I got really sick. Like, almost died kind of sick.        

00:08:09
            

And that really put just insane amounts of pressure on our relationship, on Jessica in particular, on each of us, for different reasons, obviously. And that took a toll. And so going through being new parents, me almost dying and having to figure that out really left some significant scars. And then those things never really got integrated and repaired. And then we opened, and then it was just like all that shit, even things before our son and before that issue with my health all came out once we opened.        

00:08:52
            

I always tell people, treat yourself like a toddler. Have you eaten? Have you had enough food? Do you need cuddles? Right?        

00:08:59
            

But sometimes life doesn't allow for that. Right. When you're not feeling well, you're grumpy, and then you start layering things on top. Like a simplified way of saying that. Absolutely.        

00:09:14
            

And we've been people that have always taken on really big things, like multiple big challenges at once. I'm not sure why we've done that so consistently, but we've really done that a lot. That seems like our Mo. We can do it. I'll start graduate school.        

00:09:30
            

We'll move across the world.        

00:09:34
            

Deal? Fine. Yeah.        

00:09:42
            

I'm curious.        

00:09:45
            

What is the question? I'm asking you.        

00:09:53
            

Emotional intelligence is the words that came to mind. Right. How does that play a part in the evolution, the creation of your relationship as it moves? Right. As it grows?        

00:10:14
            

How did or how do you build emotional intelligence to get to the point where you're reconciling all these things?        

00:10:25
            

Great question. That makes sense. COVID brain. No, that's great. That's a great question, Jess.        

00:10:30
            

I feel like I've been talking a lot. Yeah. I'm not sure I get the question feel. Right. The emotional intelligence piece seems like of course.        

00:10:42
            

I mean, how do we do any relationships without emotional intelligence? Right. And I think that's what I see in my relationships with my clients and their relationships. Like, if the importance and significance of our emotional intelligence, it matters, there's usually very little repair if there's low emotional intelligence. If there's low emotional intelligence, there's a lot of reactivity and defensiveness.        

00:11:09
            

I want to see if this was part of the question. It's almost like what some of the origins of our own process around developing emotional intelligence. Yeah. I love what you said about with low emotional intelligence. It's hard to make repair.        

00:11:24
            

And that's where I think a lot of people get stuck. Right. Is like, okay, these things happened. Well, let's say sorry and pretend and move on. Right.        

00:11:34
            

Pretend they didn't happen. How do you develop the ability to recognize what needs to be repaired and then repair it and then keep moving forward? Yeah. I was someone who would things would really pressure in relationship. I remember my first significant relationship in college, and I was letting things build and build.        

00:12:00
            

All these things that were bothering me that he was doing, that were dynamics. Build and build and build and build and build. And then one day, it just blew the top, and I was done. And he didn't know any of those things that were building and building and building. So he had no opportunity to repair because by the time I hit my threshold, I was done.        

00:12:22
            

Right. And that was a huge wake up for me, actually. I was like, wow. Because my emotional intelligence was pretty low in that relationship where it was like, I didn't know how to communicate things that were bothering me. I didn't know how to speak up for the things that I was needing.        

00:12:38
            

And then by the time all of that came to the surface, there was no repairing it. Those patterns were too long. It was too much. And then I could see for him, he was just shocked. Right.        

00:12:49
            

He was like, Whoa, can't we fix these things? And it's like, they're not fixable. I'm done. I can't deal with this anymore. And so I really vowed to myself, first, I don't want to do this, I don't want to experience that, and I don't want to do this to someone else.        

00:13:06
            

Right. To break someone's heart in this way where they thought, we're good, we're in this amazing relationship, and I'm actually not happy at all. And so it was initially this very mechanical agreement I made.        

00:13:23
            

If something bothers me once, okay, I can still keep it internally, and I'll try to work with it. Is this really an issue? How can I see this differently? What can I maybe change? And if I think about it twice, maybe I'll speak it up, but if it happens a third time, in my mind, I have to speak up about it.        

00:13:40
            

It was so simple. And just like that's the agreement. If I've thought about it three times, even if it seems petty and silly or like I'm worried that I'm too needy. So that's a big part of emotional intelligence, too, is like our relationship with the inner critic that says we're too much, we're not enough, and keeps us from being expressive in relationship.        

00:14:07
            

Yes. That's brilliant, because I do I have a lot of people will come and say, well, I'm trying to be cool. I don't want to make a big deal out of things. That's my problem. It's not their problem, then just holding things in.        

00:14:22
            

Holding things in. And there's like this non congruence, right? They think they're being chill and cool about things, but really internally they've got this struggle happening and that energy is there. Exactly. Go ahead, David.        

00:14:38
            

Yeah, I think there's something interesting about that. Like, why do people want to come off as chill? Why do people want to come off as, quote, unquote, not needy? This is so prevalent, and it's something that I see with clients across the board recognize. My own version of it is the way that we're socialized.        

00:14:56
            

A lot of what the work that Jess and I wanted to do with the book is to really kind of zoom out to some of the macro causes of why people have challenges in their relationships. What are the socialized influences that we bring to our individual relationships? And for me, there's this real disconnect between our lived experience I e. Our feelings, needs, and wants, right, and the capacity to own those and communicate those in relationship. And for me, this is huge.        

00:15:29
            

It's massive. How many people are struggling with this? And the stigma that exists around sort of naming your needs and wants in relationship, in the way that we're really quick either internally for ourselves to downplay those or dismiss those, or that the partners are sort of giving us shit for it and sort of treating our entreaties as problematic.        

00:15:54
            

Yeah, there's this idea that if you're having any emotional reaction other than joy or happiness, then you have to be justified in it. Right? Like, someone has to have harmed you in order to be upset. And so it's like we automatically look for, well, I'm having these big feelings. What did you do wrong?        

00:16:16
            

You're bad. You made me feel these. Right? And even if we can logically go, well, that's not really what happened, it's almost like we have to come up with this justification. And then you're fighting.        

00:16:30
            

And then you fight. Yeah, absolutely. So that feels like a big piece, too, of emotional intelligence, is, are we on the drama triangle, which is that model of a triangle facing down with the perpetrator the rescuer on the top two points and the victim on the bottom. Right. And that's often how we conduct our relationships.        

00:16:53
            

Where there's a good guy, there's a bad guy. There's right, there's wrong, there's this blame back and forth or this enabling through rescuing. And so that would be a good like, if you're on the drama triangle, often we all get on it high emotional, but the emotional intelligence piece is, oh, can I catch that? I'm on it. And do I have a way off it?        

00:17:14
            

Can I communicate more about my feelings and needs or communicate in ways that aren't judging and blaming.        

00:17:25
            

And I love that curious, that question of what is it that really spurs people on to develop emotional intelligence? And I would say relational intelligence as well. I think those are two different things that both really serve each other. But what is it that allows people to want to develop those things? And I think that's one of the things that's really cool about non monogamy is I feel like it's really in part inspiration and in part by necessity, it's a process, relationally through which people are really pushed to develop emotional and relational intelligence.        

00:18:07
            

I think that's one of the coolest things about it for me is that it's an invitation, it's a very powerful invitation to grow at that level. Yes, absolutely. I completely agree that's one of my favorite things is the necessity to keep growing.        

00:18:30
            

Amazing.        

00:18:33
            

So I'm curious about what would you say are some of the best strategies or practices for nurturing that kind of growth in a relationship in a person? I don't know.        

00:19:03
            

Jess, you want to start that one? Sure. I think I'm trying to think just with my own answer. Right? Instead of the academic type of answer.        

00:19:17
            

Yeah. For me, having the regular practice, it's not always a daily practice, but having regular practice of just stopping and tuning in, sometimes that looks like journaling, sometimes that's meditation, sometimes that's whatever. But this intentional pausing to tune in and to check in with my parts and ask what's going on here? Yeah, that feels like one of the most important things is sort of caring for the interior, basically.        

00:19:55
            

Yeah. For me, I think it's so much of my process revolves around conflict that's the work that I'm doing with clients is I'm focused on how to teach people to approach and handle conflict differently. And so for me, conflict has really become central in terms of how to really cultivate intimacy. Like, I really see it as one of the single best ways to develop deeper levels of intimacy. I think the deeper I go into exploring conflict and how to operate within its realm differently, I'm seeing like, wow, this is the single best way into levels of intimacy.        

00:20:33
            

I don't know if we can get any other way. And so I'm really curious about what helps us do intimacy. Well, excuse me, conflict. Well, like what allows us to step in and lean into conflict instead of sort of away from it and see it as something threatening. And for me, it's really like what allows us to stay curious when we're triggered.        

00:20:56
            

For me, that's been this really big sort of divide line in terms of skill level. It's like what actually in the moment of trigger feeling your nervous system be activated allows you to stay present and engage with the person with whom you're in that trigger dance. And for me, that's a really big thing. And so the things that allow me to do that curiosity to stay curious with someone that I feel triggered by is sort of recognizing, okay, what about my nervous system? Needs to get soothed or tended to, right.        

00:21:32
            

Sort of going back to that question of needs and wants, like, what do I need? Which is really a self awareness thing in the moment to stay feeling safe that I can give to myself. And often it's a really simple thing, kind of sort of what you were alluding to, Jesse, and it's just like tuning in and taking a breath and sort of calming my own sense of agitation or threat response. Like, yeah, I'm okay, I'm good. This is not a problem.        

00:22:00
            

This is uncomfortable, this sucks. This is bringing up a lot internally, but I'm actually good, and I'm really curious about what's going on for the other person here. And so doing that inner work to reduce my own threat response to sort of the situation at hand so that I'm able to stay engaged in a place of curiosity about what's happening for the other person instead of making assumptions or just attacking or shutting down completely has been really some of the most important work for me. That's beautiful. I love that.        

00:22:34
            

And it totally does go back to what Jessica said in checking in with your parts and noticing what's happening internally, which I think is a real huge struggle for a lot of people, is just to even know that their body has anything to say. That's right. Adrenaline hits. I'm done.        

00:22:54
            

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I spent a very intensive period doing a lot of EMDR therapy and trigger work, like working on all of those reactive triggers. And I think that's what really created a shift in my whole life, but obviously in my relationships where there wasn't as much defensiveness and reactivity and flashbacks.        

00:23:21
            

Yeah, totally. I love that. For me, it's breath work. Daily breath work keeps me grounded, noticing what's happening, noticing my hair standing up on the back of my neck. I can start soothing before I've gone over the cliff into fighting.        

00:23:42
            

Yeah. You mentioned kind of an interest in restorative sort of framework that's introduced in the book. And for me, that was one of the biggest initiations, was doing restorative justice work. And so sitting in restorative justice circles or conferences with people that are really charged, often these are strangers, so they don't even have the incentive of being family, necessarily, or even friends. And the stakes can be very high in those circumstances.        

00:24:12
            

And so time after time, sitting in these tension filled circles, it was really a great opportunity for me to start really observing my own nervous system in response to other people's tension. And in some of those circles, people erupt. Like, I've had clients scream at my face, and it's like, I have the clarity that it's not about me. They're activated because of what's happening in the space. But it's really this amazing opportunity to be like, okay, interesting.        

00:24:40
            

This is happening right now? What's my default sort of instinctual response? And how much power do I have to negotiate that and do something different that's potentially counterintuitive in this moment? So that really was a massive eye opener in terms of what's possible for regulation in a tension filled space. It makes me think about martial artists or something.        

00:25:03
            

It's like you learn how to really deal with your body's instinctive fight or flight responses. One of my favorite quotes is from I don't remember who said it. Somebody talking about Mike Tyson. Right. You can step into the ring with a plan, but all that goes to what your plan looks like after you get punched in the face is a whole different game.        

00:25:25
            

Right. It's just like I love that idea, that image. Yeah. Now your nervous system is taking over instincts. Totally.        

00:25:38
            

Yeah. And then extending that to our partners or the people we're in relationship with. Right. Like, remembering it's easy to forget. Like, all right, they have a nervous system they have a threat response to, and that's getting activated.        

00:25:54
            

They have parts that are wounded. They have parts that are afraid, even if they look pretty gnarly on the surface. So that feels like a relational intelligence piece as well, of what's going on in the interior of my loved one. That doesn't look very loving towards me. Right.        

00:26:17
            

Yeah. That's that curiosity piece. Yeah. One of the things that you said, Jess, in another conversation we were having with someone else that's really stuck with me is because I've been thinking about ways when introducing internal family systems to clients. People ask, well, how do you know when you're really grounded or connected to your mature adult self versus really being blended with a part?        

00:26:43
            

I think that's a really important thing that practitioners should be offering clients is what's your litmus test for knowing whether or not you're blended with a part or not? And I remember you saying, Jess, if you can be curious, then you've still got access. Then you're still connected to your mature, adult self in that moment. I'm like that's. Absolutely.        

00:27:02
            

Right. I think that is sort of the single best piece of reflection that someone could have to know whether or not they're really where they are in themselves in any given situation, especially attention filled one. Yeah, that's really good. That's really good. Fantastic.        

00:27:33
            

Okay. How I'm curious about okay. There's all these things that have happened, right. Life things. How was it writing a book together?        

00:27:48
            

That's a great question. I don't know if it's like giving birth, like my birth that I gave to birth that I gave to my son. The birth that I had was extremely painful. But then, because of all of the. Oxytocin, like you forget afterwards.        

00:28:07
            

Right. It's conceptually. I remember how painful it was. So I don't know if there's any of that happening after the fact, but I do think overall, it was fun. Of course, there's moments where it's just hard to like there's deadlines and all of that kind of stuff, but I think we really enjoyed the creative and intellectual process of fleshing out and unpacking things together, and we have a good groove of what our strengths are.        

00:28:37
            

So usually I'm writing ahead and then David's coming in and maybe refining or editing or adding. Yeah. And then for his chapter, it had to flip, which that was different.        

00:28:56
            

Yeah. I think it's one of the places where we have kind of a strong connection. Like kind of one of the places where our connection has really stayed, sort of the way it's always been, is just we love to stimulate each other intellectually. Right. And so there's a way in which just talking on a daily basis is very fulfilling.        

00:29:20
            

And so to be able to do that on paper was a lot of fun in terms of the exchange of ideas. And I think we've gotten to a really good place where it just feels easy to lean into each other's advice or critiques. I remember we have done projects in the past, writing projects, and there were sort of some starts and fits and bumping of egos, not so much, but to a certain degree. Whereas with this book, it feels like we've gotten to a really cool place. And I just never felt that.        

00:29:49
            

I never felt like we were ever tussling over anything. I remember some moments where we were having to debate whether or not something that's been written needs to get cut or augmented or changed. And it just felt there's so much trust for Jessica's sensibility creatively and intellectually, it's just like, yeah, okay, true. Like the way that you're explaining that and contextualizing that makes sense. Okay, yeah, let's cut it.        

00:30:16
            

Instead of feeling like, no, that's my baby. I think it probably also helps that you wrote an incredibly successful book on your own already, so there's definitely credence to give. But I think in general, even if that wasn't the case, I think just trusting each other's sensibility creatively is really huge. Yes. I think it would be more minor things, like there's certain words that I overuse or David overuses.        

00:30:41
            

And it drives the other one crazy to see that word one more freaking just it would be more funny, stuff like that. I love that. It's so fun to listen.        

00:30:59
            

Really. I skimmed through the PDF and I was telling David before we hit record, I skimmed over the PDF and now I'm listening to the audiobook and I just love hearing the here's Jessica Fern voice who I've been listening to for a couple of years. Right. And then, hi, it's David here. And he pops in with his very vulnerable moments that so, so appreciate, like going back and going, OK, I can look back now, and here's here's what happened.        

00:31:30
            

And now I can look at it and go, oh, I see. I love that. Because I want everyone to read it. Because I'm like, Look, I can see my clients and I can see my partners in so many of these things. I'm like, oh, look, this guy did this.        

00:31:47
            

And they look back and go, this is what I should have done. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. And that was really intentional for a lot of reasons. But I think there was the sense that not that all of these things that we mentioned, these dynamics couldn't happen to anybody.        

00:32:12
            

But I think there was sort of a sense that in terms of therapy, in terms of process work, there is, I think, a disproportionate amount of women coming to the work and really being the initiators in relationship. And we really wanted to set an example for men to lean in and really see a masculine voice, taking accountability and acknowledging some of these things that can be really hard to do. This level of vulnerability that I think is hard for a lot of men for a lot of reasons, particularly the socialization of what it means to be a man or masculine these days. And so it felt important to do that and to make my kind of I become the fall guy in some ways. But I think it was important to do and it's authentic in terms of the stories that we're recounting.        

00:33:09
            

Yeah, it's really I think that was maybe something we didn't maybe think about beforehand. But there were moments in writing the book where because we were telling our story and even though it was maybe a story that we knew, it's so different to write it out. And moments where I think we both got even more healing about our past, I maybe didn't even think, oh, I need this. But in the process of us writing or then talking through or there might have been one or two moments where we're like, I don't think it happened that way, and we had to hash it out and realize what is the coherent narrative here, that there was like a deeper healing around our past too. Yeah, absolutely.        

00:33:54
            

I think I had several male clients recently say to me after listening to the book or reading the book, especially in the last chapter, there's a very open and descriptive expose on just the challenges that I faced, like how hard some of the moments became for me and how low it got for me. Kind of my dark night of the soul with opening the relationship and them talking about feeling seen in a way that was so healing was really validating for me and really moving. And I remember working on that piece. I was crying while writing that, openly weeping, reliving, some of that. And it was so good.        

00:34:49
            

I was actually surprised by that and have never had that experience in writing something. Usually it's a much more cerebral experience. And so there was something sort of very healing for me. To be able to connect that much somatic and emotional experience into writing. And so I love that.        

00:35:07
            

I really feel grateful for that.        

00:35:11
            

That's beautiful. That's exactly what that's the idea that I got from it, right. Was like, oh, here's this vulnerability piece that isn't like, oh, look at me, look at all the work I did. But just like, this is what happened, and this is how I felt. Right.        

00:35:32
            

It's just really vulnerable, and it is just so real. I love it.        

00:35:38
            

Yeah. That's my listeners, you must go read the book. It makes all our work easier. Hopefully. Yeah.        

00:35:50
            

And I like that about this book, is we kind of go back and forth of story, more personal story, or even little mini anecdotes in the beginning of a chapter, like theory and all of that stuff and practice. So. Yeah, I like that. It has more of the narrative piece in there.        

00:36:13
            

Totally. I love that. Okay, I have a question for you that I ask everyone that comes on polyamory or non monogamy. Is this an identity or a relationship choice? Are we born polyamorous or monogamous, or do we choose it?        

00:36:40
            

You want me to answer you, David?        

00:36:44
            

You kind of got the lockdown on your model, so go for it. I say both.        

00:36:53
            

What I see is that some people, it's absolutely their orientation. Well, it can be an identity whether it's a choice or you're born with it. So I think many people take it on as their identity or claim it as their identity, and then they might feel, though, that it's a choice or that it's more of their orientation. And yeah, what I see is that it's both. It's not one or the other, is that many people truly feel this to be how they're oriented, and there's a lot of negative consequences to not living out that orientation.        

00:37:28
            

Same thing on the other end of the spectrum. People feel more wired for monogamy, and that feels like an orientation to them. And I think it's important that we allow that that's valid. And then for many people, it is. It's a choice that they can go in and out of.        

00:37:47
            

They choose sometimes they don't choose other times, or they wouldn't have chosen at all unless it was only because their partner wanted to open up or their partner felt that they were orientation. And then they step into it as a lifestyle, and they're like, okay, I can do this, even if it's not easy sometimes. Yeah. But I think this has its larger roots, this question and sort of this debate that our identities aren't valid unless they are not a choice. And it's like, why is that the case?        

00:38:22
            

Right. Why can't my identity be completely valid and even legally valid, right. Even if it's twice, right? Yeah. Especially since a lot of us identify with our careers right.        

00:38:37
            

That are choices.        

00:38:41
            

Right. And in so many ways, I think actually identity is a choice.        

00:38:49
            

We don't realize that. And so much of human life is set by default just by where we're born, the particular circumstances into which we're born. And yet that doesn't mean then that you are not continuing to choose that identity for yourself. We inherit it, the structure, the infrastructure of the identity from where we're from. But then that at some point, there is the opportunity to change all that.        

00:39:18
            

I think one of the most fascinating things about this question for me is even along this spectrum that we're naming, you can change a person who was identifying as I am. Polybioientation can switch. I've seen it for years. They're like, this is my reality. I was born this way.        

00:39:37
            

And then that's changed. And then on the other side, I've seen the other flip where someone was, like, drug kicking and screaming into polyamory because of a partner. And then now they're like, this is who I am. It could not be another way.        

00:39:55
            

Yeah, absolutely. Totally relatable because I spent most of my life monogamous. But fine, right? But I could never go back now, ever.        

00:40:10
            

I mean, I guess, unless I just didn't have the spoons to deal with multiple people, right. But I think I would still identify as polyamorous. Yeah. And that's what's so interesting about behaviors versus identity, right? Because, yeah, I identify as polyamorous, but sometimes I might only have one partner.        

00:40:28
            

That doesn't not make me polyamorous. Right. Or many people identify as monogamous, and they're cheating all over the place. They're far from monogamous. I mean, statistically, that's what we would say is most people espouse monogamy and don't actually practice it.        

00:40:46
            

Or many people say that they're straight and their behaviors are far from straight behaviors. Yeah.        

00:40:56
            

That is so real. Yeah. So what's our actual behaviors? What is our actual lived experience? And then how do we identify and how congruent or not are those things?        

00:41:08
            

Oh, I love that. That's fantastic. Amazing.        

00:41:18
            

What is one thing that anyone can do for free to have healthier or better relationships?        

00:41:31
            

It's a good question. I was thinking of you saying breath work. I was like, just breathe.        

00:41:38
            

Breathe and pause. Slow down. Everyone can do that for free.        

00:41:47
            

So good. Yeah. I would say, really. Looking at the origins of your conflict templates, what have you learned, what have you internalized about conflict from where you come from, based on what you saw growing up? What is your template and how does that predispose you to make conflict better or worse?        

00:42:24
            

The thing that comes to mind for me when you say that is I wonder how much people are aware that conflict can happen. Other like, that's not the only way to fight. Right. One of my favorite thinkers is a guy named George Lakoff.        

00:42:50
            

He still is. He's a political writer, and he talks about the power of frames to really determine. He was a linguistic specialist in particular, but he used that in the context of politics and helping people understand the ways that metaphors and language are used to really control sort of the movement of public decision. And so one of the things that I really loved was the ways in which he helped people understand that the metaphors that they're using to describe a situation are really setting a template by which action then sort of naturally flows as a consequence. And by extension, one of the things that I do with clients is really try to get people to understand that there's a literal nervous system consequence of the metaphors that you use.        

00:43:43
            

And so if we think of something as a battle and we start using a battle or a fight conflict sort of metaphor for what's happening, your nervous system is going to respond and set itself up for that kind of so it was interesting to think about. And he was sort of comparing sort of classic definitions or ways of thinking about life, like in the west versus the east. Right. I'm using those terms very generally, but east and west. But in the west, it was like we love combat narratives, right?        

00:44:17
            

Everything's hard, everything's a challenge, everything you're fighting against, right? The hero's journey. You're conquering some evil right? There's that good and evil binary that really is embedded in so much of our mythology in the west. And so he's talking about older societies like India, where they sort of move beyond that kind of binary in terms of good and bad.        

00:44:39
            

And there's more. You hear people talking about life as a dance and just think about what does that feel like to think about life as a battle versus a dance? What does it mean to show up to a battle versus a dance? And how does your nervous system literally what's your somatic experience in relationship to those metaphors? And so I think, yeah, that's why I like to say conflict.        

00:45:00
            

Conflict is an invitation.        

00:45:03
            

It's not a battle. It's an invitation to deeper intimacy. That is so good. I use a lot of metaphors, and it never occurred to me that the metaphors you use set up the reaction your nervous system is going to have. Yesterday, I had a client ask me, what's the recipe?        

00:45:22
            

How do I do this? Right? I'm like, well, okay. It's not baking. It's not a science.        

00:45:28
            

It's not chemical reactions where you have to have the exact ingredients. It's more like making stone soup where all the partners bring whatever they have on hand and you all throw it in a pot and see what you get. And then somebody maybe adds some salt and you get a little coaching or therapy, and that's a little basil. You just kind of see what you need after you throw everything in the pot. But the cooking metaphor feels really nice.        

00:45:55
            

Totally. I love that. Exactly.        

00:46:01
            

The cooking metaphor, too. Yes. I'm always trying to find metaphors because it's like, how do you just make everything accessible and understandable in a way that you don't feel like you're reading a textbook? Or it makes sense in my everyday life because so much of what people are doing, especially moving from a monogamous paradigm to a non monogamous paradigm, just makes your brain kind of boil. Trying to figure out a math equation, like, what am I doing?        

00:46:37
            

What am I supposed to do? What's the right answer?        

00:46:42
            

Yeah, absolutely.        

00:46:45
            

Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share with listeners or with me?        

00:46:59
            

No one's ever asked that.        

00:47:04
            

We're stumped. It's like so many things and no, we're good. This is great. Yeah. I think my default is always questions.        

00:47:12
            

Like, what I would default to is started asking you questions kind of like, I'm curious about your experience and your exploration of this. Oh, that's fun. I love that. I love conversations.        

00:47:28
            

Wait, was that a question? I think it's sort of yeah, it's potentially the question. It was like the prelude to a question, I guess. Yeah, for you. I'm curious to know what's been one of the biggest challenges for you on your non monogamous journey?        

00:47:44
            

Jealousy. Fuck jealousy.        

00:47:51
            

How do you work with it? Yeah, I love that.        

00:47:58
            

Like I said, I was married monogamously for 13 years. Very romantic, very big, lots of possessiveness and your mind just way of being in love, right? And then when I got divorced, I was like, well, I'm really horny and really slutty, and so I want to have sex with lots of people. I guess I'll just go do that and be honest, because that seems like the right thing to do. I didn't know anyone who was ethically non monogamous.        

00:48:23
            

That just wasn't a thing. And then a few months later, I met my second husband and fell in love, and he was like, you're the one. And I was like, no, I'm not. He's like, no. Also, I'm polyamorous.        

00:48:39
            

I'm dating this couple. I have this long term partner, and I was like, Wait, what? How do I do this? So I was like, here's what I wanted, right? To go and be free and have autonomy and adventure.        

00:48:52
            

But also I knew that I was very jealous and possessive and those traits didn't serve me in any positive way, so I knew I was going to have to tackle those. So there was this real struggle between, here's what I want, I can see where I want to be, like the other side of that river. And yet here I am, constantly falling in the water, trying to step across with jealousy. And so it took a lot of healing attachment wounds, healing past relationship wounds, lots of breath work, lots of know self love, and just really, I think the most important thing for me was holding on to the north. Star.        

00:49:40
            

Like, my vision, like, what it was that I wanted, where it was I wanted to be, even though my body was like, no, you're dying, and everybody is out to get you and nobody loves you and everybody hates you. It was like, but I know that it's possible to get there, so I'm just going to keep doing just going to keep journaling and keep doing breath work and keep loving myself. And it took a couple of years, and we were very actively non monogamous along the way. But I have a couple of blog posts where I talk about how I cried every day for a year, literally, because it was really hard, but also so worth it. So, yeah, jealousy.        

00:50:19
            

Short answer. What was that? North Star? Can you define what that was that you were holding on to?        

00:50:30
            

It was it was a little bit ethereal because it wasn't an exact desire, but it was the opposite of what I had had before. Right? Like, it was autonomy and freedom and it's so easy to fall into really codependent patterns and lots of people pleasing and lots of abandoning my own needs and my own desires and just tripping over my own boundaries and basically not having any for love. And so it was really important to me to maintain my own desires and autonomy and sense of self in relationships.        

00:51:26
            

So it's almost like, tell me if this is right for your lived experience. I'm so curious. I love this for you.        

00:51:35
            

This is what I want for myself. And so for me to be able to get this in the context of polyamory, I have to be able to allow this. And so in order to allow this, I have to endure this because I want this. Okay, yes, that is exactly and actually, that's funny that you say that because I started out like, I'm not polyamorous. I'm so in love with my husband, but not anybody else, and I still want to have sex with other people.        

00:52:08
            

And he's very I now identify as polyamorous. But at the time, the first few years, I was like, nah, I don't think that's real. I can't fall in love with multiple people. But he was very polyamorous. I went through him going through NRE multiple, multiple times, him going through breakups, all of that, and I was just like, that seems like too much.        

00:52:28
            

Until I wouldn't go and date. I would have sex with people, but I didn't have emotional dating with people because I didn't feel like I had the energetic output or the energy available to me to manage my emotions around what he was doing around feeling jealous and insecure and also manage my feelings of guilt. And am I doing something wrong or am I not being loving if I'm going out and falling in love with people? Right? Like, I couldn't do both of those at the same time.        

00:53:07
            

I had to deal with one at a time. And so it was probably four years that we had been together and open five years, six years before I actually went and fell in love and had another relationship. And then he was on the other side now dealing with something new for him of me being polyamorous fully in what I was actually doing rather than just in name.        

00:53:38
            

It was very much like, here's what I want. I have to figure out how to be okay with you having it so that I can then have it. Yeah. Fun. Right?        

00:53:50
            

I think there's a wisdom in that. There's, like, law of polyamorous physics or something. I see this a lot, where it's staggered.        

00:54:00
            

There's something that allows your nervous systems to pace and actually stay in it when it is staggered like this versus everything crumbling because it's all happening at once. The analogy that I used when I started dating and then he was having big feelings, which weren't the same. They weren't the same as the feelings I was having, but they were big feelings was being a rock in the center of a river. Right. I was like, okay, here's where I'm at.        

00:54:31
            

This is within our agreements. We're good here, but I'm going to stay right here and let you have your feelings. His feelings being this raging river all around me working their way through. And I was like, I'm just going to stay right here until it calms down before I make any moves or changes or go and do something else. Right.        

00:54:50
            

It was like I'm a rock. We've agreed that everything here is good and you're having all of your feelings. And I'd let him work those out before I moved on to the next, okay, now I'm going on another date or any progression of a relationship. Right. It was like, okay, let's work this out first.        

00:55:06
            

Let you have your feelings because I know how they feel.        

00:55:12
            

I was going to say, did you feel like you were able to do that because of kind of the initiation around your own process of jealousy? Yeah. And prior, I would have gone, oh, you're having big feelings. I'll stop doing what I'm doing. I don't ever want to cause you bad feelings.        

00:55:29
            

But because I went through it, I was like, okay, I know you're having big feelings, and I'm going to give you lots of time to integrate, to settle back, to feel like we're good. Right. Because that's what I had needed was time to integrate, time to feel calm again.        

00:55:49
            

Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, that's something that what you're describing with that rock image is really something that I'm wanting to teach clients. Right. Which is, again, and I love that sort of end piece that you added onto it, like, previously, without the experience of going through your own work, you would have just, okay, you're hurt.        

00:56:14
            

This is hurting you. I'm out. Right. It's kind of the two extremes that I see is like, people either do that, they cave in, and my needs, I just negate them and let them go so you don't hurt, or they're like, Sorry, I'm doing me. And you're just going to have to kind of figure this out as we get dragged through the mud together versus integration.        

00:56:34
            

What you're talking about is integration. And that's one of my favorite words around these kinds of experiences with new partners, is, can we slow down, let our partners feel what they need to feel, have what they need to have, and integrate, and how just that facilitates moving forward in a different way. Yeah. And do that while also experiencing NRE and trying not to feel resentful that you aren't moving as fast as maybe your partner did before. Right.        

00:57:07
            

There's so many pieces, and I was able to go, but I know that on the other side of this, it's worth moving slow, it's worth maintaining stability. And if I am experiencing NRE with someone who can't tolerate me moving slowly, then we're not compatible.        

00:57:28
            

Yeah, that's right. I love it. Yeah. I'm so appreciating you sharing this much of your process. It's really satisfying.        

00:57:37
            

Thanks. Yeah. And that's what maybe we could have learned if we were to ever do redo something from the past. Or what I want so many of my clients to see is, like, if you go slower and integrate, like, the story you're sharing, it's like you actually can build out to hold so much more and get exactly where you want to. But with all of this strength, it just won't be as freaking fast, but it will be solid and it will be there.        

00:58:08
            

And how much relationship destruction happens from. Going too fast, especially when there's that sense kind of like you named, like, when there's sort of imbalances from the past, like, oh, it's time for you to feel I was hurt this way previously. It's your turn now to go through this. Yeah. And it's understandable from one level.        

00:58:29
            

It's actually like, yeah, there's some justice in that, but what's the like, we have to recalibrate then. What is the goal? And so that's why I was really asking you about what's that North Star, what's the goal? And that clarity, I think, is really powerful.        

00:58:50
            

Yeah. So good. It's like moving slowly allows you to expand your capacity for holding all the things, for being compassionate for your partner, for holding multiple relationships, or it just expands your capacity also for your nervous system. Right. So that conflict doesn't feel as fighty.        

00:59:19
            

Yeah. Absolutely. Beautiful. Thank you. I'm glad you asked.        

00:59:31
            

Amazing. I again, like I said, I adore your book, both books and the workbook. I recommend you constantly, I would say. It's actually funny. My assistant was like, tell Jessica that her book Polysecure, is the number one recommended book on your podcast.        

00:59:50
            

You've mentioned it in almost every episode. Thank you.        

00:59:57
            

Yeah, so I've been really excited for this, and I am loving Polywise. It's so good. So good. Thank you. If people want to find you, how can they find you?        

01:00:14
            

They can find me@restorativerelationship.com. That's my website. I'm saying they can find me@jessicafern.com. My website beautiful. Occasionally on Instagram, sometimes I go over.        

01:00:27
            

There, sometimes I look right. I'll put those in the show notes. I appreciate the heck out of you guys. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having us.        

01:00:39
            

It's great to meet you. Yeah, you too. Bye.