Navigating Polyamory and Parenting, Ep. 57

Listen to this episode if you're a non-monogamous parent or part of a non-traditional family who wants guidance on how to navigate the challenges and celebrate the unique aspects of your family structure.

Koe, a second-generation sex educator, shares her personal journey of growing up in a polyamorous family, providing valuable insights from her intriguing book, This Heart Holds Many: My Life as a Non-Binary Millennial of a Polyamorous Family.

Through raw and honest storytelling, Koe paints a vivid picture of the challenges faced by children in non-monogamous families and how they are bravely navigating societal structures and perceptions. Discover the empowering wisdom that will inspire you to create an environment where your children feel supported, loved, and accepted for who they truly are.

Want to connect with Koe Creation?
https://www.koecreation.com
https://www.twitter.com/koecreation

📚 Books mentioned: 

• This Heart Holds Many: My Life as the Non-Binary Millennial of a Polyamorous Family by Koe Creation (You can get a copy of the first edition from Koe’s website)

• Sex at Dawn by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jethá

Do you feel like you could use some help with your relationships? 
Get on a free call with Ellecia to see how she can help you  move through the challenges of jealousy, fear, anxiety, and insecurities in a way that strengthens your relationships, deepens your trust, and communication, and leaves you feeling confident. 
https://elleciapaine.podia.com/clarity-chat

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Credits
- Host/Producer: Ellecia Paine
- Editor/Producer: Danny Walters
- Hosted on Buzzsprout

00:00:02 - Koe Creation
Got it.

00:00:02 - Ellecia Paine
Awesome. Okay, so I am super excited to be talking to you today on nope, we're not monogamous. So I would love for you to introduce yourself. Just tell the people listening who you are, since I already know who you are.

00:00:24 - Koe Creation
Well, hello. My name is Ko creation. I use they them pronouns. I am the second generation sex educator for the 21st century. I focus on intergenerational communication surrounding what I call relational identities that's sexuality, gender, non, monogamy, and sometimes kinky stuff. So my whole deal is that I want to be the speak to and advocate the experience of growing up this way and turning out just fine.

00:01:05 - Ellecia Paine
We just had, like, 20 seconds of complete freeze.

00:01:12 - Koe Creation
Got it. Of course we did. Cool.

00:01:16 - Ellecia Paine
It's that day.

00:01:21 - Koe Creation
Okay.

00:01:27 - Ellecia Paine
It's a full moon, right?

00:01:30 - Koe Creation
It's getting there. We're almost there.

00:01:32 - Ellecia Paine
There's, like, stuff. Sky stuff is happening.

00:01:35 - Koe Creation
Sure, yeah.

00:01:37 - Ellecia Paine
I blame everything on sky stuff. I don't know what any of it is, but if I can blame something on something, it's sky stuff. Perfect.

00:01:44 - Koe Creation
That makes sense. I got into a whole fight with my atheist brother, who's I'm like, you can't tell me that the forces of galactic bodies don't influence us, and he's like, they have radiuses. And I'm like, that's still. That it was a whole thing anyway. Okay, maybe I'll go a little slower and I'll go a little quieter to see if I can help with the freeze. Cool.

00:02:08 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, because it just, like, cut out and then you froze. So let's just try again. Introduce yourself.

00:02:18 - Koe Creation
Okay, great. Well, thank you so much for having me. My name is co creation. That's K-O-E creation. I use they them pronouns, and I am your sex educator. Well, thank you so much for having me. My name is co creation. That's K-O-E creation. I use they them pronouns, and I am your second generation sex educator for the 21st century. I help harbor foster intergenerational communication around what I call relational identities. So that is sexuality, gender, non, monogamy, and kink. And I aim to be the advocates for people who grew up in counterculture and particularly, like, queer spawn and poly kids and showing people that we turn out just fine.

00:03:13 - Ellecia Paine
I love that term, queer spawn.

00:03:16 - Koe Creation
Yeah.

00:03:18 - Ellecia Paine
I was telling my 15 year old in the car today, I'm interviewing someone who wrote a book about growing up in a polyamorous family. Is there anything I should ask them? And he was like, I don't know. Nothing. Okay, fine. So it's not a big deal for you.

00:03:37 - Koe Creation
Cool.

00:03:37 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, totally.

00:03:38 - Koe Creation
That's actually a great sign that you're doing a wonderful job. Particularly, like, the normalization of being out to your children is a big thing that I talk about, and not everybody can. I understand that. But for those who can, normalization is a huge deal and going to be a way that we can gain widespread international acceptance. So I think that that reaction is actually, you're doing great. That's a good sign. Thank you. Thank you.

00:04:10 - Ellecia Paine
That's amazing.

00:04:11 - Koe Creation
I love it so much.

00:04:13 - Ellecia Paine
I'm so excited you're here. I have a million questions I want to ask you, so I'll try to pare them down. Okay, first of all.

00:04:28 - Koe Creation
The title of.

00:04:29 - Ellecia Paine
Your book is really long, and I don't have it in front of me. Can you tell me what it is?

00:04:32 - Koe Creation
Sure. The title is called this heart holds many this heart holds many and then the subtitle is my Life is the Non Binary Millennial of a Polyamorous family.

00:04:44 - Ellecia Paine
Yes, that one. I love it so much. I love it. And I have a signed copy, and I haven't read it yet, though, but I will. It's on my giant book list.

00:04:57 - Koe Creation
I'm shaking my head for the listeners at home, I'm shaking my head. That's totally fine. Yours is actually one of my very favorites. So can I tell them how we met?

00:05:04 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah.

00:05:05 - Koe Creation
So we meet myself and Ellecia met at Sex Geek Summer Camp, which is a sex positive business intensive with a summer camp theme this summer. It was absolutely fabulous. And at the end of it, in line with the summer camp theme, there was a talent show. And I apparently have big I'll go first energy. And so every time I'm in a showcase of some form, I'm always going first. Sex geek summer camp was no exception. And so I'm standing up there, and I'm ready to sing this gay sea shanty. And I was like, you know what I've been learning this week is marketing. And that there's every opportunity is a marketing opportunity if you're suave enough about it. So I pulled out the remaining books that I brought to sell that weekend, and I was like, all right, y'all, I got three books left. Who wants them? And you shot your hand up immediately, and you're like you pointed at yourself and you're like, mine. And I'm like, done and done. And you had paid that one.

00:06:05 - Ellecia Paine
Please.

00:06:05 - Koe Creation
Yeah, you had paid me before the talent show was over. I was like, you are on top of it.

00:06:12 - Ellecia Paine
That one's going on my bookshelf, and I'm going to read it, because part of that is like, I'm raising kids who I have a non binary kid. I have one kid who was like, I think I'm the only straight person in the family. Sorry, babe.

00:06:29 - Koe Creation
Yeah, my brother is like that, and he calls himself the white sheep of our family, buddy. I know. I'm also like, but you're still non monogamous and kinky. And he's like, I know, but I'm not queer. And I'm like, okay, whatever. You need to sleep at night. Like, sure.

00:06:51 - Ellecia Paine
That is amazing. So I'm curious. Are you monogamous? Non monogamous?

00:06:59 - Koe Creation
What do you do? Wow, that's so sweet. I do identify as non monogamous, and I have always identified as non monogamous. And let me tell you, teenage polyamory is zone entire trip. I'm excited to write a whole TV show about it one day. So I've always identified as non monogamous and to get it out of the way, it's not just because my parents were or are. I did have access to that knowledge of a relationship structure from a much younger age. And so I think I got there a lot faster and I was honestly seeing a lot of toxic monogamy tropes in media. And I'm a kid of the so there was like a huge wave of divorce, which I think is really healthy and was a lot to take in as a child of like, well, you're supposed to stay together forever. Also, there's this rapidly rising divorce rate. And I'm like, what is going on? And then I saw Jerry Maguire and that infamous scene where Tom Cruise is standing there telling Renell Zellweger, soaked from the rain, like, you complete me. I can't live without you. And I was like, nine or ten. And I remember thinking, I never want Tom Cruise standing on the doorstep telling me I need to complete him. I saw the inherent patriarchy that I didn't have the words for yet. And I was just like, no, thank you. So, yeah, I have chosen a different path thus far. And also, I think that I am not closed to monogamy, but bless my polyamorous friends, they're very sweet. They're trying to look out for me. But when I'm talking about like, yeah, I just want monogamy, where we're deeply invested in the communication and dynamic of our relationship and we bring everything up to each other and we actively choose all of the different ergonomic pieces of what our relationship looks like, they're like, Honey, it kind of seemed like that's. Not really. When you're saying monogamy on a dating app, that's not what you're going to find. Maybe you want closed anchorship, non monogamy that then you bring guest stars into sometimes. And I'm like, I don't know. Where are my radical ethical monogamists at? Who knows?

00:09:25 - Ellecia Paine
I want more of those.

00:09:28 - Koe Creation
I think they might enjoy it if they're nerds like we are. Right?

00:09:35 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, yes. That is so good. I love that you said that not because my parents are non monogamous. It's just that the veil was lifted for me or it was never closed.

00:09:52 - Koe Creation
Yeah, totally. Well, one of the things that I've come to understand over my years of growing up in counterculture, not just non monogamy, but Seattle in the don't know if this is the same for other communities, but there were like all the little concentric circles of counterculture community had at least overlaps, right? And so I was engaging with non monogamy and I was engaging with queerness and I was engaging with paganism and also people of multifaith, and I was engaging with interracial, looking at interracial relationships and interracial non monogamous relationships. And I went to an indigenous Pedagogical school growing up and so I just had a lot of access and opportunity to look at the nondominant narratives, like the narratives that society is trying to shove down our throats and how, like you said, that's a veil that's like a facade. And I think that there's one thing that this thread, through my activism and my relationship life and my personal identity of breaking apart the binary and seeking the truth and honoring truth in history. My dear friend Canyon Sares Rudes is a fabulous non binary polyamorous indigenous activist who always talks about honoring truth in history, and that has kind of permeated everything that I do. And non monogamy, I think, particularly unveils, breaks apart this myth that diadic, internally focused, closed relating is the epitome of relating whilst also literally refusing to recognize the ownership structure, the literal capitalism inherent in that the individualism based on colonialism, based on freaking agriculture. Because at least one of the things that really struck me when I was a kid was when Sex at dawn talked about how agriculture was a major shift in how society structured themselves, because then it was important to know where your genetics went, to know who to give the farm to. And I'm also like, yeah, but also I don't know, I think that there's still this thread that that's a justification for individualistic colonialism as well. Anyway, I got myself really hot. I'm going to take a deep breath.

00:12:30 - Ellecia Paine
I love that you talked about Sex at dawn because it's a really easy way to describe it. We don't act like is that really the thing? Who knows? It's a good.

00:12:42 - Koe Creation
I just I reference it in my book, so sometimes I have to bring it up. So I feel justified in referencing it in my book.

00:12:51 - Ellecia Paine
I love it. Okay, I'm curious about.

00:13:06 - Koe Creation
What is it.

00:13:07 - Ellecia Paine
I want to ask you. Okay. I'm curious how, having been in an open poly family growing up, how your friends, teachers, people outside of your family reacted or what messages you got from outside your family, if that makes sense.

00:13:32 - Koe Creation
Oh, totally. Yeah. Okay. So there's kind of like two or three different aspects to this. So with my extended family, my biological mom and my biological uncle are a part of my poly family. They are not connected in any way, but they are a part of the family cue, like a polycule family cue. Right. And so their family like their siblings and their family, there's like a pretty big cultural divide there. We have some really happy with their Christianity and their conservativism relatives, and it's been really interesting to have two siblings follow this counterculture path and then have that cultural divide continue to divide us. What's also been really interesting is that my generation, a whole swath of us, have come out very queer or non binary or both. And so it's really interesting to watch that continue, but in a different way. And we want to have discourse, but it is really hard sometimes I remember my biological mom was in a quad that we lived with for most of my teenage years, and the quad came to the family reunion, like, all of them. And that was like I was really excited because I'm, like, the middle child of my siblings, and I just want everybody to get along all the time. And I was like, Everybody's here, everybody's getting along. But it was, like, a big deal, and it was, like, real tense, and they only came for a couple of days. They didn't come for the whole time, but my mom had to advocate really hard that not one of them didn't come. All of them got to come, right? Yeah, that's one aspect. The teachers at school. So we weren't fully out at school. There's a piece in my book that I also I am convinced is, like, a pretty big key piece of poly kid or raised in non monogamy idea. Specifically. When I saw this represented on the show Sense Eight, I was like, oh, my God, it's not just me, but, like, the parent teacher meeting, the parent teacher conference. That's a big deal. For whatever reason. It's the moment when the family is coming into the educational space and needing to present themselves subtly. You're not talking about the family structure necessarily. You're talking about the children's performance. But then it's a feedback loop. They influence each other. And so when my family would go in and I write about this in my book, my biom was there sometimes. My biodad was there most often, and then the biological mother of my siblings was there. And so it was like, well, and sometimes my mom would have I remember once my mom had a baby from a friend of ours, not in the polycule, but just had this baby, and my teacher was like, what is going on? Right? They didn't fully know what to do. And so we either had to explain as best we could, or it was thought of that. My non biom, who's the biological mother of my siblings was our nanny, which is how we got her on the pickup list or the emergency contact list or things like that. We had to work within the structures that were given to us at the time because GSAs were brand new and they were not in elementary schools. Right. We were not at the place where there was structural support.

00:17:07 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah. Wait, what's a.

00:17:10 - Koe Creation
Uh when I was a kid, they were called Gay Straight Alliances, I think they're now called.

00:17:15 - Ellecia Paine
Got it.

00:17:15 - Koe Creation
Something. Student alliance. Like QSA like queer student.

00:17:19 - Ellecia Paine
Got it.

00:17:20 - Koe Creation
Okay. Yeah, totally. And then specifically, what I'm thinking about in that regard is that I was taught what I now know to be code switching at a very young age. There was a sense that in my family, things were safe and understood and you would always be accepted, and very specifically, that outside of our family, like, my non biomom calls it the overculture. The overculture would not understand, not just like may not understand, but would not understand that CPS, child Protective services in our families and our communities was weaponized, right? Like, I saw divorces happen not in my family, but of non monogamous families. And then one parent decides that their shame overtakes them and everything they've done for the past X amount of years was wrong. And then they call CPS on their former spouse. That was like, happened more than it was scary, right? It was scary to know that your family that very specifically focused on support structure and nonviolent communication and open and honest relating and treating us as what we call tiny humans. Like we had autonomy and responsibility that was age appropriate to us, right? All of those things that I thought were pretty cool and my parents were very into and nerdy about were not acceptable. And then as I got older, I'm like, then what is acceptable? And then I learned and then I became an activist and then particularly to kind of give this like a cute button, kind of. And this story is in my book that my friends growing up had levels and it was a little bit like a mission impossible. I don't know why Tom Cruise is a theme during this podcast that was not intentional, but it's this like it was like this mission impossible mission to be like, okay, Friend is coming over to our house because I always went to their house for the first time, but friend is coming over to our house. Mom, put on your clothes. Like so and so. When are you coming home? Right? And we're going to play outside for a while and then inside for a little while. And here's what we're telling the parents. And literally, I had a friend with a really conservative parent and my mom wanted to invite them to my birthday party. But this parent had been like, well, I don't know about that person. You can hang out with them at school, but not elsewise. And my mom put on her church going clothes. She's from the Midwest, so she didn't wear anything fun. She just really took her energy down and went to this person's house and was like, hello, my name is So and So. I would like to invite your child to come in. And my mom happens to have like lobe and cartilage piercings. And the first thing that this parent said to my mom was, wow, that's a lot of piercings you have. Moral of the story that Friend did not come to my birthday party. And so there were like, we had to hold the onus for being different. And my friends who ended up getting all the way to like mach one friend where they could be there when everything was normal were a big deal. And honestly, my two best friends from childhood, I still have to this day. I keep in regular contact with both of them because we formed a really special bond. It was like a level of platonic friendship intimacy that I don't know if other people get to, and I honestly don't know because I had the experience I had and not others.

00:21:22 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah. I love that. When you're talking about how what did she call it? The overculture?

00:21:34 - Koe Creation
Yeah.

00:21:34 - Ellecia Paine
How people outside of our home may not understand this, I feel like that is something that most children go through in one way or another. There's so many things in families that are like, this is private, this is to stay within the household, or this is to stay within the family. We don't talk about crazy Uncle Bob or we don't, you know what mean? Like or we don't talk about how our house is going to be foreclosed on, or we don't talk about there's so many things that kids go through life thinking through their childhood, feeling like they have to hide from the outside world. And I think it just kind of says it's not weird or outside of the standard to have this one thing that a kid has to what's the word I'm looking for? Really think about maybe not hide, but I want to preserve some privacy. And I think kids from all sorts of families wind up doing that for one reason or another.

00:22:43 - Koe Creation
Absolutely.

00:22:43 - Ellecia Paine
I know I did. My parents were monogamous, but they were fucking weird. There were only a couple of people that came to my house that were friends of mine because I was so embarrassed.

00:22:53 - Koe Creation
Yeah, totally. Well, and to bring it back around to me, that also speaks very highly of individualistic culture. Right. We are not friends with our neighbors. Even if we're in small towns or communities, there's still that sense of what could somebody else perceive me as? What are the optics on me that would make me a threat to this norm that would then get me in trouble? Right. That is anticollectivism if I've ever heard it. Right?

00:23:26 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, exactly.

00:23:28 - Koe Creation
I'm actually curious. I've listened to some of your podcast, but not all of it, and I'm curious, what are some of your stories or metrics around navigating your non monogamous family?

00:23:42 - Ellecia Paine
Good question. I was thinking about that because.

00:23:48 - Koe Creation
My.

00:23:48 - Ellecia Paine
Husband and I have three kids from.

00:23:50 - Koe Creation
Two different ex partners, right?

00:23:53 - Ellecia Paine
So we were both married, had kids, got divorced, and then we're like, Well, I don't want to be monogamous again, and then remarried. Here we are. He and I have been together 910 years and have never been monogamous together, and we're co parenting multiple children. And there were a lot of fears around, what if my ex finds out? What could happen? Like? Is CPS a concern? Our jobs a concern? He was in the military. He's not anymore, thank goodness. That was a concern. And I just went the more open and honest and authentic that I am, the less, like, trouble there could be. At least then I don't have to navigate. I don't know anything that doesn't feel real or natural to me. So we've just always been open and honest with the kids, with anybody who comes into our life. And we even went through an entire custody battle with polyamory as the central argument against us having custody and won.

00:25:07 - Koe Creation
Wow. Congratulations.

00:25:10 - Ellecia Paine
Thank you.

00:25:10 - Koe Creation
Thank you. That's in Washington. Yeah.

00:25:16 - Ellecia Paine
So I always have empathy for people who don't feel that they can be open. And I completely understand all of the concerns. And also, I think a lot of the concerns are blown out of proportion and things would not go as bad as they think they would.

00:25:35 - Koe Creation
Yeah. Especially nowadays. A lot has happened in the last 20 years, and I think that's also fair. You say that you were able to garner support in a very custody battle. Right. Like a very not egalitarian but authoritarian proceeding. And that helps remind me that that is true now. Like, my inner child needed to hear that. Yeah. So I really appreciate that. I think that's wonderful. I'm also somebody who is very pro coming out to your children because they will know whether you intend them to know or not. They will, because you observe them, they observe you, they learn from you. They can see dynamics that they don't actually understand. And what do we do when we see something we don't understand? We build narrative around it for ourselves to help us understand. So they're going to be creating narratives that may not have your best intentions in mind or may feel like a secret that doesn't feel safe to them. Right. And I know multiple adults who are like, yeah, I just thought my parent was a slut, or I thought that my parents were cheating on each other versus that normalization that I was talking about earlier, where and it doesn't have to be, like, all or nothing, right. Age appropriateness. Something I talk about in my book that was hugely influential to my childhood is a key to that. Right. You can talk about having lots of different loving people in your life. You could even say, like, yes, I kiss some of my friends the same way that I kiss your other parent. Or you could choose not to do PDA in front of your kids. Right. As they get older, it could be like, hey, you know, uncle so and so's house that we go to every summer. Yeah, I sleep in that bed sometimes too. Right. So if you need me in the like, go ahead and come to that again, like, what is the purpose of sharing the information both for yourself and for your child and then calculating what you think your child is capable of and also asking them what they are capable of because they might surprise you? And I think what I loved hearing about your story is that there was a balancing act there. Right. Like you understood some of the things that you do end up asking of your children when you're out to them and recognized the counterpoint of the stuff that would inherently also come up if you weren't out to them. And so I think it's about this balanced calculated was the word that I thought of when you were looking for it earlier. Like a calculated approach which also then models that to them when they're going to be utilizing it in the outside world.

00:28:32 - Ellecia Paine
Exactly. I know people all the time ask, well, how do you explain it to the kids? What would you tell the kids? And I'm like, okay, look, at no point does a monogamous couple sit down with their kids and go, okay, we want to explain to you that we only have sex with each other. Do that for anything else.

00:28:55 - Koe Creation
No, that's the thing is when you grow up, kind of like you said, everybody has their own culture of origin. I recently found that term and I absolutely love it. Right. And so the specificities of people's intersections as they grow up create a unique culture that is what they're being lovingly, marinated in as children. Right. And so when you are accountable to yourselves in your relationships and how that affects your family, I think that's actually the key. Right. And then your children are able to hopefully develop trust and grow up feeling like safe and supported and loved and all of those things without non monogamy being like the central focus of it. One thing that I did want to bring up is that my parents had, and I look back on them on this thing, and I'm like, wow, if I wanted to stay friends with one of their partners and it wasn't like a non safety issue with that particular person, but it just didn't work out. I got to dictate that. Which meant that they had to break up in a way where they could maintain enough communication that I could go see that person.

00:30:15 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah.

00:30:20 - Koe Creation
Time went on. I was in my late teens, early twenty, s, and the communication had kind of fallen apart with my biodad and one of his long term partners. But I still maintained a relationship with her and I was an old enough teenager that I could do that on my own. And she actually asked me to come be the witness at their courthouse. Ellecia, Ellecia is like holding her chest, which is very sweet. Yeah. So I really appreciate how my parents were accountable to their actions in their non monogamy, which I think feeds into healthy non monogamous culture right. In that people are not inherently I think about similarly, one of my dear indigenous friends, Greg Castro, G-R-E-G-G. Castro talks about in that a piece of it of California indigenous pedagogy is that nobody is dispensable and it relates to the fact that we are all stewards of the land. Like that is our role in the ecosystem of the land and relates to the fact because the land is not a resource to be extracted, it is a thing to be cultivated and everything has a role, everything has a purpose and has relationality with everything else around it, including us. And so the way that we can be in relation with the land is similar to how we can be in relation with each other and not treat each other as extractive resources that then we can dispose of when we're done. Right? So again, it's just like breaking apart the dominant narratives that are even following us through when we're trying to break the intergenerational trauma and patterns and live more true to ourselves. Sometimes those vestiges still hang on. And this was a way that I saw my parents working to stay in community and in restorative justice with each other so that they could be present, everybody could be present for their children. Yeah.

00:32:39 - Ellecia Paine
I love that so much. Especially because what we typically see in monogamous families, especially monogamous families that split up and then the parents start dating. But there's all these rules around like don't introduce your children until you've been dating for six months or been in a real relationship, whatever that means, for six months or a year. Or don't introduce my children to people. And I'm like, but we have cousins that visit once a year. We have all sorts of people that come in and out of our lives as children. But for some reason, if there's a romantic connection, all of a sudden they're not allowed to come and go.

00:33:16 - Koe Creation
Yeah, so weird. That possessiveness.

00:33:19 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, it's so weird. And I'm like, I don't feel like kids really care unless the intention or the impact that you're making it mean is like, this is going to be your stepparent, this is going to be your other parent replacement.

00:33:37 - Koe Creation
Right?

00:33:38 - Ellecia Paine
Kids don't think that.

00:33:39 - Koe Creation
No. And that is almost automatically assumed sometimes within what I understand of monogamous culture, which is again, like an outsider's perspective because I didn't grow up that way. But it's almost assumed that you have to take on a co parent role and that can be really hard for the person coming into the marriage as well. Like oh, what do I mean to your child? And again, I love the criticality there. I love actually thinking about that. But there's a term that I happen to coin in my work, in my coaching work called meta parent. M-E-T-A parent, which is like being a MetaMorph, but with a non romantic parental relationship because you have a relationship to that child if the parent says yes. Sometimes a parent has a don't ask, don't tell between the sweetheart and the child. Which I also think is I would love it if everybody could know each other, but if they don't, that's their. Thing. But specifically, when you start to develop that relationship, you don't have to go right into being a co parent. That's a very deep, intimate, intricate relationship. And so why don't you work on that meta connection and see where and how you do fit? And also somebody who is working on their leadership and childcare skills or somebody who doesn't have an interest in that and is feeling really wiggly about it has the opportunity to take steps versus just, like, receive a mantle.

00:35:13 - Ellecia Paine
Yeah, I love that term metaparents so much because I have partners that know my kids. My kids know them, they trust them, but they're not stepparents. But it feels really weird to be like, well, they're their friends. Well, no, these are adults and these are children. They're not friends. They aren't going and hanging out.

00:35:28 - Koe Creation
Right.

00:35:29 - Ellecia Paine
But they're like metaparents. That's my mom's friend.

00:35:34 - Koe Creation
Right.

00:35:35 - Ellecia Paine
I have very close friends that are way more parent like than some of my partners. My platonic friends totally will tell my kids what's up.

00:35:47 - Koe Creation
Yeah, exactly. I'm also getting old enough now that I have had a couple of Medikids, and meta kid is sort of like how I refer to them when I'm talking in these really nerdy spaces. I don't say that to their face necessarily. Yeah, exactly. We're still figuring out the semantics, but that relationship is one that I value so much, and there are people that I'm no longer dating. And when I've seen their kid, I remember just a couple of months ago, I went out to dinner with the parents and the kid, and the kid came up and squeezed me really hard, and it's like, we haven't seen you in a long time. And I'm like, I know, it's been so long. And they're like, too long. And my little heart just melted because I'm like, oh, God. Okay, this is the other side of it.

00:36:44 - Ellecia Paine
It's fine.

00:36:47 - Koe Creation
I received that as a kid, and now I'm in a place where I can or want to give that to the youth in my life that I get to engage with, because that's beautiful.

00:37:05 - Ellecia Paine
I love that so much. That's so good.

00:37:08 - Koe Creation
Thank you.

00:37:12 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, beautiful. Okay, as an advocate and activist and someone who talks about non monogamy and gender diversity, what advice do you have for people who are exploring these aspects of their identity while trying to navigate social expectations, judgment, trying to navigate all these different pieces?

00:37:48 - Koe Creation
Yeah, and I think this advice for me is we've talked a lot about how to present this to your children. So I think this advice for me is, like, for anybody who's like, parent or not parent. Right. Ah. I think that this is also like, me talking to my younger self, but, like, patience. Some patience and some understanding, which can be very hard to hold sometimes. I literally just had an interview the other day for something official, and they were like, well, this is not my question. This is something the clients might come to me with and they're going to ask me, are you a boy or a girl or a man or a woman? And I just want to know how to support you and knowing what to say. So what do I say? And that was sweet and empathetic and caring and all the things and I was still mad, I was still like, why is this that I put my pronouns on the thing? No, dear self, like, take a breath, you're an educator even in the moments when you don't want to be. And unfortunately that has always been true because you grew up in a monogamous, non monogamous family that you were put into the role of an educator at a very young age. So I get that you're frustrated, like dear tiny co, I get that you're frustrated, dear teenage co, I'm glad you're not yelling in this moment like you would be and like, dear now, co you have this skill. And so I was able to talk about my experience of how I like to be engaged with when it comes to gender, right, and a way to actually say that I'm relatively feminine center, but I also encompass a lot of gender. I am gender full and expansive and so you'll see me in a lot of different kinds of dress, you'll see me with different affect, but that doesn't affect my professionalism, that doesn't affect who I am. And the way to encompass all of that is by using they them pronouns, right? And it doesn't actually tell you what my body is shaped like and it doesn't tell you those things. It still helps. It's like I felt real slick. Right, lovely, thank you. Thank you. You can all use that. And so I think that practicing for yourself a little bit, knowing that these kinds of questions are going to come up and then being able to speak to how you want to be engaged with like the Platinum Rule. Have you heard of the Platinum rule? What's?

00:40:44 - Ellecia Paine
The platinum rule?

00:40:45 - Koe Creation
So the Golden Rule is treat others how you want to be treated, but that assumes that other people want to be treated the same way that you do. We've already talked about individualism, we've already talked about intersections. So the Platinum Rule is treat others how they are asking to be treated. Right. Got her hand on her chest again.

00:41:06 - Ellecia Paine
Fresh air.

00:41:07 - Koe Creation
Yeah, that is like yes, right? And it's an avenue towards actual equity and equality, not just equality, but actually speaks to equity. Like, what do people need to be able to access things and be on a level with each other? It speaks to listening, right, and looking into somebody's particular story in an appropriate way to actually see them as a full fledged human being and not just like a worker in this capitalist individualistic system. And I think that it's a way to engage with curiosity and best intention and allows people who do need to speak up for themselves, empowerment to be able to do that. Right. And then it's reciprocal. You can also ask for the things that you need. So that's my visionary, what I always aim for. And then as I spoke to a little bit earlier, sometimes I have to mitigate that with figuring out how to speak to that Platinum Rule in a way that will land in my everyday life. I've realized that I've identified as non binary since 2007, since before we were using they them pronouns. I remember at one point looking at somebody and we were like, did you use differential pronouns back in the day? And it's like, yeah, you remember when we all had to get on the they them train? Yeah, I do. I remember that moment. And so I've been at this a long time and realizing I still need to come out every single day and doesn't matter what kind of community I'm in, doesn't matter the intersection of the person that I'm with, there's still going to be the need to advocate for myself. I can either find that endlessly exhausting or I can also apply some of that curiosity and empathy to myself and be like, yeah, this is an opportunity to help change somebody's day, potentially. Particularly when that gets to happen in a safe way that the parents approve of with youth. That is what really helps feed me and helps me believe that there is capacity for change in society.

00:43:32 - Ellecia Paine
Yes. Platinum Rule. That's probably like the best relationship advice ever. If people got comfortable asking for what they want and how they want to be treated and asking other people what they want and how they want to be treated, my God, we would not be all be over here guessing, trying.

00:43:50 - Koe Creation
To figure out what other people want.

00:43:52 - Ellecia Paine
I thought you wanted to be treated that way.

00:43:54 - Koe Creation
That's what I would want, yes. That's really good. I think that I've subconsciously thought about that in non monogamous in my relationship contexts. But I think I really like the way that you're making that explicit. I know this says something that comes from activism and equitable justice. And like we've been talking about, those are transferable skills. Right.

00:44:19 - Ellecia Paine
Parenting too. Yeah, right. Parents constantly assume what their kids might want, how they might want to be held or reacted to, or what they need emotionally, or just what they actually need. Right. Like, I often assume my kid wants ramen and she really doesn't.

00:44:37 - Koe Creation
Yeah.

00:44:38 - Ellecia Paine
And we forget that we can say, hey, what do you want right now? How do you want to be held in this? How do you want to be treated?

00:44:44 - Koe Creation
Yes, absolutely. And that can happen. I've been doing early childhood education for the last several years and that can happen pre verbal. Right. I was with some of my chosen family and they had this adorable now two year old. This is when they were one and they didn't have any words yet. And I was like, Can I cup your face? And I asked the child, and I held up my hand and they straight up turned their whole head away from me and I was like, Great. Good to know. It was so clear of that moment of consent and of engagement that it helped me. It really landed for me like, oh, again, age appropriately. Right. I'm not going to ask somebody to identify their core trauma so that I can relate to them better when they're like twelve. Right. But engaging at the level that is applicable to them because then that begets trust and they are more likely to come to you with the things that they're asking for later down the line.

00:45:55 - Ellecia Paine
Absolutely. 100%. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you want to share with the listening folks?

00:46:12 - Koe Creation
Just to be clear? I love talking to you. I feel like we could go on forever and ever. I'd love to come on at another time.

00:46:18 - Ellecia Paine
Perhaps I could come up with like 27 topics.

00:46:22 - Koe Creation
I know, right? Yeah. I think that one of the only other things this is just like an exciting sneak preview tidbit for you and your listeners is that so I do coaching. I do coaching in families and individuals and that's kind of been my focus for a long time. And this winter I wrote two television pilots and three children's. Know, it rained a lot in California this winter. I had a lot of home time. And so I have this sort of wealth of media that I really want to make and I want to get produced. And I'm looking for an illustrator right now. And I networked with somebody that we both met at Sex Geek Summer Camp about my pilot, which was very exciting and that's just really bubbling up within me right now. And I just wanted to put out there that one. I see non monogamous media. It's been around. There's even stuff that people might not think about from like 20 years ago, but there is more proliference of it. But it's still very much this sense of do you know, the trope, the lesbian trope about the lesbian comes in and kind of mucks everything up and then is gone like three episodes later. Oh yeah, I'm seeing that happen with non monogamy. It's kind of like somebody tries for a triad and then it explodes and then that's never what could work for me. I'm going back to monogamy. I've been seeing that happen more and more in media of late. And so I'm just curious about other people's thoughts on non monogamy tropes and what we want to see out of non monogamous media. Because I really want to see families. Like, I wrote a pilot about a polyfamily and that's the one that I'm really working on networking right now. If you're in the entertainment industry, please contact me. And also, the one thing that gets me is, why are we looking at non monogamy as just like, the whole picture of the reason it doesn't work, which is like something we deal with in real life, right, is like, oh, well, it must be the non monogamy. And it's like, no, it's the consummate lying that's actually the problem. You know what I mean?

00:48:51 - Ellecia Paine
Relationship and all our shitty relationship skills.

00:48:56 - Koe Creation
Exactly. Right. And I see that happening in media, whereas I want to see things that are healthy, non monogamy, because there's so much richness there, there's so much intricacy and opportunity for miscommunication that could be really juicy in a writing entertainment way. So that is really what's up for me right now, and the thing I'm the most passionate about, and like I said, I have a lot in the bank that I want to get out there, and I'm like, I'm kind of curious. What are some of your favorite pieces of non monogamous media or Tropes that you've seen, or what would you want to see out of your non monogamous media landscape?

00:49:37 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, that's really good. You mentioned one of my favorites earlier, senseate.

00:49:44 - Koe Creation
Yes.

00:49:45 - Ellecia Paine
The whole thing is, like, so juicy. Yeah, I love it. Also another one that I love that it was so not at all central to the story. Not even, like, a blip. It's just a thing that's mentioned, like, no big deal was Sci-Fi show. They're in space, and the main guy comes from a polyamorous family, and now I'm drunk. The Expanse. Really? The Expanse, the main character, grew up in an eight person polycule.

00:50:23 - Koe Creation
And it.

00:50:24 - Ellecia Paine
Had to do with one. They pulled genetics from all eight people to make this baby. So it's future very futuristic, and part of that was for property ownership on Earth because property was scarce, and so they would make children that had the entire family. But it was just like it wasn't even central to the story at all. It was just like, yeah, that's just a part of the story. That's just who this character is. And I loved the way they did that.

00:50:51 - Koe Creation
That's awesome. That's really cool. I have not seen The Expanse, and now that is, like, another reason to potentially go look at it. So good. Cool. That's awesome. Yeah. It's something I'm very curious about, I'm interested in. I can send you some of my favorites that maybe you can put in the show notes of this episode for your wonderful listeners and wonderful listeners, what are your favorites? Will you comment on social media and tell us so that we can all go and watch the cool things? That would be great. Thank you.

00:51:22 - Ellecia Paine
Yes. I love that I'm always looking for stuff. There was another one that we watched that I liked and hated and loved all at the same time because I loved it because it was just like, drama I hated it for the representation and I cannot think of the name now I will remember, but.

00:51:38 - Koe Creation
They kept.

00:51:39 - Ellecia Paine
Using the word thruffle, which I hate the word thruffle.

00:51:43 - Koe Creation
Really?

00:51:44 - Ellecia Paine
I love triad. I hate thruffle. Why are we trying to make couple more palatable? Or it sounds like couple but plus one, right? Yeah.

00:51:55 - Koe Creation
This is a fascinating one. This is juicy to me because I am having this conversation with a lot of people and that is absolutely the word that's taking off in mainstream culture and in fandom. Like, fanfic loves the word thruffle. One thing that I have noticed about it is from my understanding, it's come from gay male community. Right? Which historically, at least in my experience, there is a lot of non monogamy that happens in gay male community. And there's acceptance around that in certain ways. And there is like a massive cultural divide. I don't see as many gay male polycules or individuals showing up to the poly munches that I go to or my family used to hold or like the poly queer spaces that I inhabit. And that makes me curious and a little sad, honestly, because again, I'm the pansexual middle child who wants everyone to get along, right?

00:52:59 - Ellecia Paine
Please don't ever ask me what my favorite anything is because I cannot decide.

00:53:02 - Koe Creation
I know it's true. It's true. But in that way, I think that I really want there to be embrace of the word thruffle because it comes from a cultural context that is not getting the same support or focus from our community as they are doing for representation in our community. So I'm not trying to change your mind.

00:53:30 - Ellecia Paine
You've got me thinking though.

00:53:31 - Koe Creation
Cool.

00:53:32 - Ellecia Paine
Because it very much felt like this is the way some monogamous folks made it feel more okay. It's fine because they're a thruffle. It's like a normal relationship with just an extra person. It's not too weird. There's just another person.

00:53:51 - Koe Creation
Right.

00:53:52 - Ellecia Paine
Except I have an open triad and we all have partners outside of that. So it's like if you say thruffle, it just kind of assumes it's just a three person relationship. That's it. It's just monogamy plus one.

00:54:03 - Koe Creation
Yeah. It assumed polyfidelity. Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Neat.

00:54:12 - Ellecia Paine
You are amazing. I'm so happy to have you on.

00:54:15 - Koe Creation
I'm really happy to be here. Like, meeting you at Sex Geek Summer Camp was one of my highlights. And I really love the work that you do and thank you. Same. Thank you.

00:54:24 - Ellecia Paine
How can people find you?

00:54:26 - Koe Creation
Well, so again, thank you so much for having me. My name is Cocreation. That's K-O-E creation. So that's Koecreation.com and Koe creation on socials. And you can find my book. It's called this Heart Holds Many by Cocreation. You can find the ebook online, like on Goodreads and things of that nature. And then if you want a physical copy, there is now a limited run of the first edition because I'm working on my second edition right now. You're getting all of the juicy details from the Coexistence. See, I'm working on my second edition. So if you would like a signed copy of the first edition of this HeartHold mini, you can contact me directly through, like, a direct message on those platforms and I will send it to you all. Signed and gorgeous. And then I'm currently working on my audiobook, and it will be coming out on my Patreon within the next year. So if you would like to support the Coexistence is what I call my body of work. If you want to support me in the Coexistence, you can go to Patreon.com Cocreation. That's K-O-E creation. I have multiple tiers for financial accessibility, and my audiobook will be coming out on that within the next year.

00:55:40 - Ellecia Paine
You should release it chapter by chapter.

00:55:42 - Koe Creation
Oh, yeah, that's the plan. It's also easier to record.

00:55:48 - Ellecia Paine
Okay, I have one more question. This one does not go out on the regular podcast, but is for my Patreon supporters@patreon.com, notmonogamous and it is called Just The Tip, and it's what is your favorite or best sex?

00:56:05 - Koe Creation
Okay, great. So not a cop out, but another thread throughout this conversation is the show Senseate, right?

00:56:14 - Ellecia Paine
Yes.

00:56:15 - Koe Creation
And honest to gods, the best tip that I've ever gotten is from Lito Rodriguez on that show when he's being interviewed by major media and he's being asked about what makes an excellent lover, and he's, like, not out, and he's thinking about his boyfriend, and so he's like, okay, how do I do this? And it's essentially like the feedback loop, right? The interest that you have in your partner's pleasure and getting totally lost in that while simultaneously being so yearning and in your yes. And in your voice about your pleasure and what you need. Because knowing that your partner is super invested in your pleasure, it creates this feedback loop of desire and intensity and listening and communication that I think makes sex really hot. Right. And so not just the headiness of it, but really leaning into what your desire is in that moment because it radiates from you and it also physiologically makes you more aroused. Right. And it builds up that oxytocin. Right. It's really good holistically. And if you want more data on how to do that, I highly recommend Betty Martin's work around the Wheel of Consent and The Three Minute Game. You can find that@bettymartin.com and she just wrote a book on yes.

00:57:50 - Ellecia Paine
Yes. And it's kind of like the platinum rule for sex.

00:57:53 - Koe Creation
Yeah, I was just noticing that as I said it, I was like, oh.

00:57:56 - Ellecia Paine
It all comes together full circle.

00:58:00 - Koe Creation
It's fantastic.

00:58:02 - Ellecia Paine
Amazing. Thank you so much. I appreciate the heck out of you.

00:58:08 - Koe Creation
Same. I would love to come back on another time for one of your 27 topics. You're fabulous, and I can't wait to talk to you again.

00:58:15 - Ellecia Paine
Oh, yeah, we'll totally do that. Bye.