The Marathon Problem: Overcoming Fears to Embrace Non-monogamy with Poly Pocket Podcast Ep. 72
Welcome to a candid exploration of the highs and lows of the non-monogamous journey, especially after the significant life transition of divorce. If you've found the path to non-monogamy leaving you with more questions than answers, feeling both overwhelmed and intrigued, this episode is for you.
Joining me today are Hunter and Butcher, the insightful duo behind the Poly Pocket Podcast. As a married, UK-based couple navigating polyamory with children, they offer a relatable and supportive voice for those in the polyamorous, consensual non-monogamous (CNM), open relationship, or swinging communities. Their commitment to the development and support of the 'Poly' community shines through their podcast and now, in our conversation.
In This Episode, We Cover:
Mastering the Transition: Hunter and Butcher share their personal experiences of moving into non-monogamy after divorce, offering wisdom on navigating this significant life change.
Unveiling Polyamory: Discover how embracing polyamory can open a new chapter of sexual and emotional exploration, and what it means to truly open up after a traditional monogamous marriage.
Embracing Empowerment: Dive into the world of sexual empowerment coaching. Learn how this approach can transform your relationships and personal confidence within a non-monogamous context.
Conquering the Green-Eyed Monster: Jealousy is a common challenge in any relationship, but it holds particular prominence in polyamorous dynamics. Hunter and Butcher discuss strategies for managing jealousy and fostering secure attachments.
Thriving in Non-Monogamy: Uncover the keys to successful non-monogamous relationships. From communication to boundaries, hear how to navigate the complexities and joys of loving multiple partners.
Whether you're new to the concept of non-monogamy or have been on this path for some time, Hunter and Butcher's insights offer valuable guidance and support. Join us as we navigate the intricate, rewarding journey of non-monogamy.
Connect with Hunter and Butcher:
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Credits
- Host/Producer: Ellecia Paine
- Editor/Producer: Danny Walters
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TRANSCRIPT:
Ellecia: 0:14
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non-monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships enthusiastic, non-monogamy polyamory swinging kink and our lives. You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, nope, we're not monogamous Welcome to our newest episode. I'm so happy you're here listening.
Ellecia: 0:47
Today I'm chatting with Hunter and Butcher, the hosts of the Polly Pocket podcast, and a married UK-based couple who are navigating life with children and a strong desire to support and grow the Polly community. So on their show they offer practical advice wrapped in their genuine experiences. Their journey into polyamory highlights the importance of self-discovery and clear communication in non-monogamous relationships this thing that I keep telling you guys about over and over and over right, they actually moved from traditional marriages to other people into the realm of polyamory and they're here to share their insights on everything from handling jealousy to raising kids in a poly family to building strong, open relationships. So I hope you enjoy this very fun and down to earth chat with Hunter and Butcher as we discuss the ins and outs of adopting a non-monogamous lifestyle post-divorce. Whether you're curious about polyamory or you're deep in your own journey, these stories and these tips and this light-hearted conversation will offer support and perspective. Enjoy Excellent Right Like just so we have it. I often do that. I'll start talking to people and then I'm like man.
Butcher: 2:02
I wish we had recorded that.
Ellecia: 2:04
Exactly, exactly. So I um, where do I start? Okay, so I uh, I was married monogamously for 13 years and I got divorced. And then I was like 35, had two kids, had a house, had a business. I was like, man, I'm not doing that again, I'm not getting married again. So I guess I'll just be a slut and I'll be honest about it, cause that seems like the right thing to do.
Ellecia: 2:29
And then, like three months later, I met my second husband, who was like yeah, I'm polyamorous and I'm dating this couple and I have these friends and you know whatever. And I was like, uh, cool, great, awesome, um. And then I fell in love with him and was like, oh fuck, now I have to deal with all this. Like, like, I see the ideal, uh huh, I know what I want to be doing and also my emotions are telling me that I shouldn't be doing this and that there's lots of bad things happening. And my brain is like, no, there's everything's great. And my emotions are like, no, everything sucks. So I was doing a lot of work around that. I was also doing a lot of work around sexuality and I was studying under Layla Martin and she came out with her coaching, her coach like coaches certificate program, which was like a year long program that took me two years to do, cause it was really in depth.
Hunter: 3:26
And you're 35, with two children at this point, or a little bit older potentially, and that's a lot to deal with as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Ellecia: 3:36
So so yeah, I went through that and I thought I was going to be like a women's sexual empowerment coach, like that's what I was going for. And then, like all I was talking about was relationships and non-monogamy, and it's like, oh, that might be the thing that I actually have a passion for. And so I've been coaching folks around relationships, non-monogamy, transitions, right like moving from one relationship paradigm to another, for like about five years now okay, very interesting okay and is it?
Hunter: 4:09
is it busy work like, do you get like booked up or is it difficult to find?
Ellecia: 4:15
people. No, I mean, it took a while to build up right, like I've been running the podcast for two years, which I started to get people to know who I am, and so I I like spent the last I think it was like three and a half years where I was doing I also owned a salon and I was doing so I like was slowly transitioning into coaching, and so last year I closed the salon and now I'm at like a full-time level. Now, when I say full-time in coaching, I mean like I will typically have about 10 clients and maybe a group program running. Um, okay, yeah, so it's not like actually full-time. I work like 20 hours a week, maybe, right, but I mean a lot of. It is like content creation and marketing. Like that's the the biggest thing I want to be coaching. But, like, in order to coach at the level that like you want to do, you also have to like Market the crap out of yourself yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Hunter: 5:19
And this is where we're kind of um, I think we're coming to at the moment, because we're looking at sort of tapping into the UK market around the coaching but the the so the niche would be looking at couples transitioning, because that's the experience that we've got right, that we did it together and I think it would be a bit unfair of us to potentially go as a single person. We did do it together, sure we actually did he just winded me up.
Hunter: 5:57
But yeah, I think it would be unfair of us to uh try and we can try and understand where a single person coming into it would potentially be, but we do not have that experience and that has not been our life, so to speak. So we draw on what we've been through and then apply the coaching techniques etc to cetera, to that.
Ellecia: 6:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that's, that's basically all. It is Right. Like I have, um, I have uh programs around like jealousy, and I have a program around, like I have a program that's for women, um, just to build up their confidence. Cause I was like, oh my God, so much of what I'm seeing is like all of this comparison and like so much of the the struggles and issues were coming up because of like I actually just kind of don't feel great about myself, and then I was fine until I had people to compare myself to, and now everything sucks yeah, but that is such a social issue.
Hunter: 7:01
I find that you probably are crucially aware of this with the work that you do, but women are effectively pitted against one another. We're not designed to to build well, sorry, we're not encouraged to build one another up and to be there for one another. And I think the early part of our journey and I think this is what's it was a real surprise for you is that we actually had a, um, a girlfriend as almost thruple type territory, but not quite as easy as you say.
Hunter: 7:30
It is it, but it's easy yeah as a thruple dynamic, um, and I was so insanely jealous of her, even though we were both bisexual. We were literally 10 days apart in age. But the difference was is that I was a mother of two and I felt even though I helped run a business and you know, I play football and I have all these amazing things going for me, including you living with you full-time yes, um, but, um, it was that thing of I was so jealous of her, and it wasn't her necessarily just being with him, it was the idea of her just being able to do what she wanted when she wanted, without any permission from anybody. And it drove a wedge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it's so hard.
Ellecia: 8:18
I similarly. We have a triad as well, but ours survived that and has been like seven years now. But like yeah, I was like cool, I'm the mom of everybody now. Great, yeah, yeah, awesome, yeah. I just wanted more children then my girlfriend started calling my husband daddy and I was like nope, I'm drawing a line here.
Hunter: 8:44
No, I already have children it's funny, that's a hard no here as well, isn't it? We're like absolutely not.
Butcher: 8:52
We can't do that, nope, can't we've never talked about it, but amongst most of our community, yeah I play father figure. We don't think about it because it's just like it's just me being me. But you think about some of the one who's got like the up until recently, the, the stable, successful job. I'm the one who does like I'm good with the kids and do cleaning around the house.
Hunter: 9:17
I do a bunch of other things one of our friends did say to us once leave some of the parenting for us after we'd made a like a harry potter style cake for halloween party that took days to make. That's just what we do. They're like, just stop it. Just stop it. We're just having fun, we're having a great time. No, no, no, you're showing the rest of us off, not a competition but I'm winning.
Ellecia: 9:43
But do they call you for like car problems?
Butcher: 9:48
Computer tech stuff, yeah, all the geeky shit.
Hunter: 9:50
That's my turf Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep and emotional level headed support, I think one of my partners. What did he say about you? He's a dickhead? Yeah, well, he does say that. But he also said um, he said something about how you. You always have such a level opinion on things and I can't remember what it was. But he said to me I'm gonna go talk to Hunter about this because he's got such a good, clear view on big, complicated problems and I just thought that's so nice that he would think to talk to him rather than me.
Butcher: 10:30
It's nice to be even nicer. I can remember who it was he said it.
Ellecia: 10:35
Give me that validation give me, give me that validation. How?
Butcher: 10:38
good, I am, it's great tell me more.
Ellecia: 10:41
Did you screenshot it?
Hunter: 10:43
I can, if you want, forever. Yeah, sorry, that was a slight sort of we digressed, but it was just interesting to pick your brains yeah, yeah, I, I love it.
Ellecia: 11:03
I love doing this work. I love talking about relationships and I mean it's not even like just non-monogamy, it's just like I had. I had a, um, an assistant working with me for several years who, uh, is monogamous, and she was like my entire relationship is so much better because of all, like all the information that you put out there, like it's not just non-monogamy stuff, this is like how-to relationship at a much better level than uh, than we're taught.
Hunter: 11:32
Yeah, yeah yep, 100, 100 and in fact, um that I've got a group of girls from the football team who know not all of them, but they all sort of know but these three really know the in-depth.
Hunter: 11:46
I'll be like, oh, I'm dating this person or I'm doing this or whatever, and they just sit back and go wow, that's so, so cool. But it's because of how we interact with one another. They see us every sunday. They've met partners of ours, they've heard about partners. For example, you ran from your date a couple of weekends ago 18 miles to come and watch me at a football match and he just turned up all springy and light and happy and full of joy and everybody was just like having had no sleep right.
Hunter: 12:23
I'm like, yeah, he was with his girlfriend last night, he's fine um, it's full of energy now.
Butcher: 12:29
Yeah, he's having a great time so, but then also someone else, another one of our play partners, came to watch male, came to watch you at the match as well, so it was kind of fun. So I spent, I was knackered, needed food and I'm chatting to this bloke who then that was on the sunday, and then last friday he came around and you two had fun.
Hunter: 12:50
Yeah, with his partner as well. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it's just.
Butcher: 12:56
You just think it opens up so many possibilities, right, it's not just it's not just that, though, because we had we talked about it on this week's episode, I think, when we record ours on a monday night and then it goes out the following monday morning so I've got a full week to edit some crap.
Butcher: 13:12
Um, and we're just thinking about the fringe benefits you get about managing your, your feelings around these things is if you, unless you put yourself in a position to learn and grow, you never get the chance to flex that muscle. You've grown in polyamory in a completely different environment, and it was in. It was football. It was actually, uh, last sunday's match, a different match, where you were playing shit. Oh god, it was terrible and she was sitting under the page and about five minutes to take it off because you were crap, but not like. But about a year ago that would have caused like a multi-day meltdown. This was like nope, that's fine. I, I understand the reasons and I I'm being a grown-up about it and that's fine. It's like, yeah, that doesn't come from. I mean, yes, that can come from other sources, but in this case it comes from being able to understand someone's point of view, not react emotionally, and move forward in a growth format.
Hunter: 14:07
And even if you do react emotionally because I was having, I was holding it together and then the coach came and talked to me and then I started crying and he was like don't do that, please don't cry, started crying and he was like don't know, you're fine, please don't cry.
Hunter: 14:23
I said I completely respect your decision and I totally understand why you took me off, because if I was you I would have done um. But then it got him to open up to me. He was like I don't think I've ever told you this, but when I was um a youngster, I played rugby and I used to spend most of the time sat on the bench and I didn't understand why, and no one ever talked to me about it. Um, and yeah, so it was nice that he actually came over and we we could have the grown-up conversation yeah yeah, yeah, yeah oh, I love that.
Ellecia: 14:55
The emotional growth we get to do is so wonderful. I mean hard but freaking wonderful. The outcomes are wonderful.
Hunter: 15:06
Exactly and unforeseen, I think as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, amazing.
Ellecia: 15:12
Okay, I'm curious, which is why I have a podcast. I'm okay.
Butcher: 15:17
Yes, I'm curious.
Ellecia: 15:18
Yeah, which is why I have a podcast. I'm curious.
Butcher: 15:22
What I thought for one moment. Sorry, there's a small child coming downstairs.
Ellecia: 15:26
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, small child.
Hunter: 15:31
Go parent. She did this the last time we were recording as well. I'm sure she knows yeah, yeah, oh yeah. And time we were recording as well. I'm sure she knows yeah, yeah, oh yeah. And. And she is a child that doesn't like wearing clothes to bed as well, so I understand that completely I totally get it who does, I think. I think she's learned it from us and we mentioned this the other day to someone. They were like how could you possibly sleep naked? I'm like how can you not?
Ellecia: 15:59
what is wrong with you? I get blankets that feel good. I don't know. That's how. Yeah, I have soft blankets.
Hunter: 16:07
I have soft sheets yeah, like we are lucky, like that amazing, it won't be much longer. How old can ask how old were your kids when you were 35 and you decided to step into all of this?
Ellecia: 16:24
Yeah, they were three and five. Okay, yeah, three and five. They're now 13 and 15. Okay, and I have just, you know, there's just normal life for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have, you know, different partners around and, like I said, our girlfriend has been around for like seven years, so she's just part of the family. And then we have other friends that come and go, but they're just, you know, they're friends, it's not. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Hunter: 16:59
Weird. We have other friends that that come and go, but they're just.
Ellecia: 17:01
You know they're friends. It's not.
Hunter: 17:02
Yeah, yeah, yeah, weird or anything, yeah no, yeah, just like any friend, regardless of whether it's yeah monogamous or whatever. Yeah, we're very much the same and and and that um take on things. But yes, sorry, we were distracted. You had a question. Oh, what was my?
Ellecia: 17:15
question my. What was my question? What was my question? My question was oh, just about your, like your relationship structure, like, um, have you guys been open a long time? What does that? What does that look like?
Butcher: 17:31
yeah, sure, so, uh, we got into it, uh, just like into the pandemic, so about three and a half years ago, maybe four years, in june classic uh, great timing yeah, it was wonderful, really, really well planned.
Butcher: 17:46
It was a great idea um, yeah, that was kind of like not quite out of the blue, being like this bubbling conversation since the very early days of our relationship, but we didn't really know. We didn't know kind of got triggered by this particular individual. We then, like he was on the scene and off the scene fairly quickly because it turns out he was a colossal dickhead, so it didn't really help. He was embezzling money from the UK government to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Butcher: 18:11
So you know that kind of thing, we pick them, we really do Going to get out of that one yeah, then we didn't really have anything really for about another nine months to a year or something, because a, covid and b there's a lot of lessons to be learned. There's lots of like anxiety within 2am conversations. Then you found a, basically started. You found a long-term boyfriend. Then we found this girlfriend who was a thrupley girlfriend for 20 months. That all ended last April in a complete fire disaster thing and then, overlaying that, you found a stable boyfriend. I found a stable. He's French. Um, it's fine, he's doing a so-called he um he is beautiful and he snores, but apart from that, uh, he's not.
Butcher: 19:08
He may be beautiful, he's not perfect, um no one is.
Hunter: 19:16
He's been shouting.
Butcher: 19:17
I'm so sorry he's shouting well, let me ask the question. You can have the experience of hearing one half of the conversation, because when you walk away from this, I can hear you but she can't hear what I'm saying so I can just say what I want about her and she won't know unless you say it.
Butcher: 19:34
That's the source of entertainment. So, yes, got a long-term girlfriend. I've got a long-term. So I've got a long-term boyfriend. I've got a long-term girlfriend, um, I've been dating her since june july last year. She lives in london. She's wonderful, um, it's. She's got an incredibly interesting and tortured background which is like, but she's this really happy person despite her. Like it's recently been her ex-husband's anniversary of his death and all the shit that went with that and she goes bringing up her, their 16 year old daughter on her own and and just loads of stuff going on there. It's kind of interesting. But then we've also got lots of couples that we all have like a kind of we've got our core poly relationships and we've got loads of what we call like swinger friends that we know.
Butcher: 20:31
So the couple that we saw last friday, for example they're more swingery in that sense thing, sense of things, although we both feel there is the possibility that could have developed into something a bit more serious. And then we also go to parties and clubs and events and things like that for even more random fun.
Ellecia: 20:48
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very similar to us. I talk to a lot of people who are like we're strictly poly or we're strictly swingers or whatever form, whatever form. And I'm like, no, we just kind of do everything.
Hunter: 21:00
like I've got partners that are long term, I've got some lovers that I visit, we go to parties and clubs, like just do all the things yeah, it blows some people's minds as well and they kind of don't necessarily know where they fit into that, and I think it's more a fact that they're not quite sure where where they're at, which makes it difficult for them to understand where you're at, I think oh, that's kind of like this thing where, like what is available for me and I'll settle for whatever's available, rather than get the thing that I actually want.
Ellecia: 21:38
That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, I see that a lot Like well, this is like if I could have everything, this is what I would want, but I can't have everything because, you know, this partner has these restrictions and this partner has this. So like I'll just see what's available and I'll decide if that's what, if that works for me.
Butcher: 22:02
Which can be a driver for anxiety people. Because if you uh feel that because of whatever setup or even your own internal preferences to underline someone else's preferences, if they find it somewhere else they might leave you and you can see how that drives anxiety, even though that is the whole thing about this whole lifestyle is it is all optional. No one's mandating you do any of it.
Ellecia: 22:19
Yeah yeah, yeah but it's a.
Butcher: 22:22
It's a. It's like a next level version of you. Know people who are uh monogamous and don't understand it, so but you know they might leave me and this is like the poly version of that, which is, but I've got different requirements than yours.
Ellecia: 22:35
Yeah, they might leave me, but I've got different requirements than yours, yeah.
Hunter: 22:40
They might leave me. It's the same anxiety.
Butcher: 22:42
It's just got a different. Like it's weird, because you think you? Get past it at some point.
Ellecia: 23:58
Just because we're poly doesn't mean relationships last forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. So that's, that's fun. I'm I'm curious what is what would you say?
Hunter: 24:09
makes a relationship successful. Oh, we had this discussion recently and I can't remember now what we said. Oh, no, no, hang on cake. No, okay, okay, cake or death cake or death.
Butcher: 24:21
That's uh, if you've ever heard of eddie azard one of his sketches one of his sketches um, it's about the church of england, so if you haven't heard, I'm not surprised um we, so we had a conversation recently about, uh, regret and how it's very.
Hunter: 24:43
We think that it's easier to regret what you haven't done versus what you have done so because there is always a learning, and I think what we landed on and what makes a successful relationship is what you take away from it, regardless whether it's forever, whether it's in a fleeting moment or you know, whatever it may be, it's what's growth. What have you learned? What have you taken away from that situation? How do you base yourself like? What do you like, what don't you like? And it's I think, that's our approach to it. So, even if you know, with the the situation of the guy who we first met, you know he taught us a lot about understanding your gut instinct around things or um, it's a, it's a buzz term, but you know, understanding what your red flags are, in people, for example um, it's not infallible.
Hunter: 25:47
We still have our moments where we cock up or we we get taken in by people, but I think we suss it out a lot quicker than maybe we would have done once upon a time, would you agree?
Ellecia: 25:56
I would agree, yeah, yeah see, I thought you were gonna say we learned a lot from him about what we don't want but also what we do want.
Butcher: 26:08
The whole like. There was a whole it's like I say, very serious a very difficult conversations, which is is this something you'd ever want to do again? Cause it nearly broke us up the way it went and some of the stuff that happened was, you know, it could have been relationship ending it nearly was, but then also, underneath it all, for me it was thrilling. I want that feeling again, yeah.
Hunter: 26:32
so yeah, you sort of keep, almost keep going, despite yourself and it's learn oh sorry, go on, no, go ahead, go ahead. Thank you. It's that learning of um, you know when it's too much, or you know it's thrilling, but if you do something all the time it stops becoming thrilling. So it's like we don't go to sex parties every weekend, because then it's. I mean, I'm already at the point where I can just strip down in a room of people and literally not care. Yeah, yeah, that that whole fear factor thing has left me a long time ago wasn't much of it in the first place, to be fair.
Hunter: 27:13
Yeah, you're pretty body confident these days but there was a time where I wasn't, you know, going through two kids and that sort of thing. It changes you emotionally and physically, but yeah, these days, so it's knowing like what levels of it uh, still brings you that joy and that thrill, and that you're not just doing it for the sake of it, that you're assessing yourself constantly and going is this what I want or does something need to change? Do I need something new or is this good for me or yeah, so I think it's. It's what makes a relationship, relationship successful. Going back to that initial question is yeah, it's the growth. What can you take away still?
Ellecia: 27:59
I love it. Uh, okay, um, I'm I'm curious um Hunter, you said that that going through that relationship, that breakup, um almost could have broken you guys up, and I'm curious how? How did you get through it?
Butcher: 28:13
we did the thing. They always say we talked a lot, we talked an awful lot. But it's kind of like that's the, the mechanism, that's the train, but our relationship was the track. We weren't going to go off the train tracks, we were kept on moving forward. But you have to power the train and you power the train with conversation and that gets you to your destination. The destination is making it work yeah how's that for a little like made up on the spot?
Ellecia: 28:42
metaphor I like that one. That's really good. Somehow you just turned um conversation into coal burn it, burn it all down.
Butcher: 28:51
Somehow you just turned conversation into coal. Burn it, burn it all down. Good on you.
Ellecia: 29:00
Thanks, no, it was so good.
Butcher: 29:06
I've never had one of my metaphors skewered quite so efficiently as that as well.
Ellecia: 29:09
Thank you, I got you I got you, I got you on that. You have yeah.
Butcher: 29:15
You win bonus points. But it was hard, don't get me wrong. It wasn't like an easy journey to go through, but at the same time it was I mean, we're both married and divorced before we met. I'm sorry because we met and there's some things that you want because you want them. There's some things you want to avoid because they hurt. It's like I don't want to go through divorce again. We had children. I don't want to have a child with my ex that I don't see. Because of that I don't want to go through any of that again.
Butcher: 29:46
So fine, I can't leave, before I have to stay. And despite, again, so fine, I can't leave. Therefore I have to stay, um and like, despite some of the pain. Through it all, I never doubted, like, how much I love butcher. So well, that's gonna stick around. But also I've got this new sensation that I like and this new knowledge I have about myself that I like, so I need to like. It's not choosing to like, it's not choosing, it's integrating. It's making the conscious choice that this is a. The future me is different from current me, but change is always difficult and that's what we go through. It's just going through that change. Yes, it hurts and it requires a load of coal, a conversation.
Ellecia: 30:30
Yes, yes, oh, that's so good. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate it. You're welcome very raw.
Hunter: 30:37
I think, just I remember a lot about that time, though that you do feel like you're going round and round and round the same conversation continuously and nothing breaks nothing, nothing is resolved results, nothing seems like it's getting better for a while. When you're in the trenches of that, really trying to work something out, it's hard, it's really bloody hard, and especially at the time that at that time we had nobody to talk to other than each other as well so we were pinging off each other's emotions.
Hunter: 31:17
Um, you know, we didn't even have lifestyle friends at that point. You know someone who we could just go and be? Could you just be a mediator for this? Because we are struggling, um, and something that we've come to realize is that it doesn't help just having the same conversation again and again and again. What you need to kind of be striving for is what are we going to do about it? How are we going to move forward? What makes you feel safe? What makes me feel safe, and where can we meet harmoniously somewhere, not necessarily even in the middle, just like what flex needs to come from each side in order to make this work? And, um, sometimes it's just a case of trusting the process and going through it, and something that we talk about a lot on our podcast is the marathon problem, because we're both runners or sporting people, and you don't know how you're going to be at the end of a marathon before you've run run it so the person at the start of a marathon versus the person at the end.
Butcher: 32:24
So this is all about the first time you ever run a marathon. Yeah, it's just like. This is a like lots of first-time experiences, first time you've ever gone skiing down a black road yeah, just pick your. Pick your first time doing anything. Yeah, you cannot know how you're going to feel at the end of that experience. You can't intellectually get yourself there. You have to go through the experience. Yeah, and we just shortcut it called the marathon problem, but you could pick your sport analogy yeah, or any analogy so yeah, so yeah yeah, pretty much similar.
Hunter: 33:01
It's as nerve-wracking and probably goes on for about as long as well. You're much quicker than the rest of us.
Ellecia: 33:13
That's him running, running, uh-huh uh-huh, I see, I see running got it, we'll get, we'll get feedback. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the oh, I feel, I agree. I think a lot, of, a lot of times we spend so much time talking about how, how I think I'm going to feel after we do this thing, what I think is going to happen and how I anticipate I'm going to feel, and then it happens and it's not at all anything that I thought it was going to be.
Butcher: 33:45
Yeah often the case yeah yeah, you, and like I say there's just so. I keep reading um, I've just started a coaching course and they keep saying that the, the experience of doing something is what makes it real, whether you write something down or say something, but if it's inside your head, it's not real until it leaves your body in some way. That includes physical experiences as well. So you inside your head is a simulation of the real world. It's not the real world, though. You have to live in the real world, otherwise it's all a bit pointless yeah, yeah.
Ellecia: 34:25
This is why I don't run marathons I mean, I encourage that world it's not the most joyous experience.
Butcher: 34:31
I don't know why weeks of training to go before the next one, dear you got this, you got this, thanks, thanks just a proxy for being a psychopath.
Ellecia: 34:45
It's fine okay well, we all have our things.
Hunter: 34:54
I've been talked into this one. I wasn't keen on doing you. I'll just sign you up and if you don't do it, it's fine no, no, no, no, no.
Butcher: 35:02
This is an offline conversation. This is not how the conversation went. Fuck a lot.
Ellecia: 35:09
I imagine that that's not how non-monogamy started, although I have heard a lot of people say that. I really go on more yeah, like like uh, like, like um, you know, we started because, well, this is what they wanted, this is what my partner wanted, so we just thought we'd try it.
Butcher: 35:31
We nearly had a version of that, so I'll go into a little bit of the story about how it all started. There'd been this very fuzzy, nebulous background conversation, not about swinging or poly or anything else, just a this sort of if something like happened to either one of us, the other one, like you, I don't know, I'm in a car accident and get paralysed, dark, dark. But you know, everything's practical. We're spending the rest of our lives together and the conversation's like well, I'd still want you to have sex because sex is important to you, and vice versa. So you have this very hypothetical conversation that's way off in the future, it may never happen. And then you end up like getting nearer and nearer to present tense and more realistic situations. But nothing was ever done and nothing was ever like. Said in those contexts is always a very outlandish thought process.
Butcher: 36:23
Yeah, and then this guy turns up and well, you, you were working with him, it's probably the easiest way of saying it and then you started working for him and, um, there'd be lots of flirting, but nothing, nothing happened. And then one day, after a work's dinner, you'd had a couple of drinks. He was driving you home from london to where we live not too. And I get a phone call and it's Hi, hunter, it's me, we're going to share your wife tonight. That was it. That was the start of it. It was that phone call, really. And then he came over and I for varication about three hours while getting increasingly intoxicated.
Ellecia: 37:07
Then I eventually went all right, All right, I'm in.
Hunter: 37:18
Basically, and that's how it started. But the weird thing of that is that it's. It wasn't necessarily that either one of us pushed for it.
Butcher: 37:23
It was someone else yeah, who pushed us over the edge, that we kind of put ourselves like on the edge of something and someone needs to come along give you a shove, and he was the shiver and we had talked about it previously, like imagine if he cracked onto us and then I.
Hunter: 37:39
Then I was eight weeks pregnant. We've discovered I was pregnant and I basically every day for god knows how long and then had our second child and then thought, oh my god, what have I done in life to deserve this? She was wild. She's an independent woman.
Butcher: 38:01
She's a delight I can't see my face, but it's really Imagine someone's really sarcastic face.
Ellecia: 38:15
Yes, yes, yes, she gets aware of it.
Butcher: 38:17
So yeah, but again, even with that, there was this. It was a hypothetical conversation, it was imagine this, imagine that, imagine this. It was never the active version, which is do you want to do this? It was never that, it was just this. Again the Marison problem crops up and you're going it's just a thought, a thought experiment, never anything real. And then all of a sudden someone else makes it really going. I'm never gonna know unless I do it right. Let's, let's do it and then find out. And it was fun. The first time was great. I've got no regrets about that this. The other two times, the next two times were bad. The last time was fun, and then we found out who's stealing money.
Ellecia: 38:57
So and you're like, oh, that was that, but it cast a shadow of everything else it did.
Ellecia: 39:05
Yeah, well, part of the money was ours, so it didn't help, didn't really help you yeah, oh no, yeah, man, yeah, wow, uh, you know, I think you guys, I, I okay, first of all, thanks for sharing that story. I love it, uh, and I hear things like that a lot in the like we've talked about it and it's almost like for a lot of people like a, a light switch, like either we're doing it or we're not right. Like what, what is the step? And I tell this, I tell this to my clients on the line like what is the line? What is the step that you're taking, that now you're doing this thing, you're not monogamous or you're polyamorous or you're, you know, whatever it is you're working towards? Like, what is the step that moves you from whatever paradigm you're in now into the next one?
Butcher: 39:52
so sorry, I'm gonna nerd out for a second. Have you ever heard of a beta zone paradox? No, so there's this uh concept, which is people will live in an, in a state of mild unhappiness, beta zone. They can see what alpha would be, but to get to alpha involves risk or loss, or potential loss, risk of another name and so they will stay. They will keep themselves being moderately unhappy instead of risk being happy, because the journey from beta to alpha is risky. So people find themselves choosing a state of unhappiness, which is why it's called the beta zone paradox, and that applies to, like again, all walks of life, loads of things. But you see, couples do this, having the conversation, the thinking about it, or one of them is they cannot get out of that zone.
Ellecia: 40:45
Yeah, Without a shove.
Butcher: 40:47
Sometimes you need a dickhead to give you a shove, which is what we got.
Ellecia: 40:50
You need a dickhead to give you a shove, which is what we got.
Butcher: 40:52
You need a dickhead to give you a shove. That's what we call him now. We don't call him by his real name, he's just called DH.
Ellecia: 40:56
I had not heard of that, but yes, I talk about this all the time with clients. Your brain and your nervous system really loves what's known and it loves to be comfortable, even if that comfortable really fucking sucks, if it's the worst thing ever it's like, but I know what this is like.
Hunter: 41:15
the next thing that I don't know could be worse it's really brave to move out of your comfort zone yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not easy, and especially when you, like I say, if you have nobody to look to.
Hunter: 41:33
I feel like you probably didn't realize this at the time, but you were in such a blessed position of meeting someone who had the experience, um, but not just that was open to you having your own journey and your own experiences as well, from what it sounds like to me. Yeah, yeah, um, rather than saying, you know, this is the way it's going to play and this is how it's going to be, and blah, you know, you go on your own journey, um, so you had the ability to sort of set up your own network and your own people and be like, okay, if I've got a problem, I'm gonna go talk to this person who can give me insight without being biased or involved or, you know, whatever it may be, and we didn't have that for a long time. So it was really fucking scary because it was like it was just the two of us.
Butcher: 42:27
It was the two of us in this room usually talking from when the kids went to bed at like seven or eight o'clock at night till one, two, sometimes three o'clock in the morning, exhausted, yeah, and unable to move forward because we had nowhere else to turn and we could only turn to each other because no one else knew. Yeah, and if you look for, like, like you say, materials and resources, well, there's very little in the UK, generally speaking, and purely towards the swinger side of things in the UK which is kind of why we started the podcast.
Butcher: 43:03
Actually, originally it was going to be a book, which is. Here's the journey. We went on and blah, blah, blah blah. Then we realised we could write, so we started a podcast instead.
Hunter: 43:10
We're going to try do a book. My handwriting needs to get a lot better.
Butcher: 43:11
We weren't on and never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never.
Ellecia: 43:26
Know what you don't know, right, and if all you have is each other to talk to, it's like you're in this, um, like a, like a, yeah, yes, yes, yes, thank you. An echo chamber. You know what I was doing with my hands?
Hunter: 43:37
it looked just like an echo chamber as well. Yes, universal sign ymca that's later.
Ellecia: 43:48
That's the patron, yeah yeah, yeah, you're like it's like you don't know, Like okay, I know there are 12 options for this, 12 solutions to this problem. Really, there's like 70, but I only know of 12 and you only know of 12. So we have to choose from these 12. We don't know, we don't have access to the rest of the 70, because nobody told us they existed.
Hunter: 44:10
Yeah.
Butcher: 44:12
Just to quote Rumsfeld, because he's so good at this, though, but it's the unknown unknowns and the known unknowns and the unknown unknowns. Yes, and the known unknowns. There's a lot more known unknowns than anything else. Yeah.
Ellecia: 44:27
Yeah, yeah, yeah, amazing, what, what. What would you say after that first experience? What would you say was the biggest growth area or challenge or struggle, or change? Like six questions there, it's fine.
Butcher: 44:55
We can sort of console it into one which is there's lots of little steps along the way and I'm gonna. I've got one I'm wondering if butcher agrees which is it's a two-parter. Which is trust your gut when it comes to other people, but then I modify that because I may go. It's trusting your gut when it comes to other people, but then I modify that because I may go. Trusting your gut is the first data point. Get other data points before you decide to take action, but trust your gut first, because the number of people that we've had come through our relationship, who one of us has gone?
Butcher: 45:36
This doesn't feel right, but I'm going to go with it anyway, because of either lack of experience, some form of scarcity value, especially at the start, because, rightly or wrongly, I always thought people were more interested in butchers than me. So I I believed that. So when, um, when women who were interested in me came along, I was reluctant to let go of them and both of us would go. This isn't right, but you would, you understood my position. You would let me keep pursuing a kind of slightly pointless relationship because of how things landed Not pointless, you know what I mean, but it was doomed. Should we say uh, uh, long past the part where we should have given up on it, despite what our instincts were saying, which is this is dangerous, don't go there. So that was probably what I would say.
Hunter: 46:29
That was the biggest lesson is, over the course of nearly four years, learned to trust my gut better it's also not my place to tell you I I do not believe it is my place to tell him you have to break up with this person. I can tell him this is how it's impacting me and this is how I foresee it impacting you, and I believe this is how it's impacting us. Now, what you do with that information is either you make it better or you you or you don't, or you try whatever, but it's not for me to go. You have to split up with that person now, because I say so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah you gotta go through it right.
Hunter: 47:11
You have to learn your own lessons yeah, exactly, it's like the kids, right, you go. Okay, I was in a park at 15 and I got blind, out, drunk, and blah, blah, blah. You're not allowed to do that and they're gonna go. Well, that's exactly what I'm gonna go and do, because you know, because you've said I can't, so watch me. Um, or there's my experience, where they're like that's fine.
Ellecia: 47:36
I never want to leave the house anyways.
Hunter: 47:39
Well, exactly, exactly, exactly. My dad, my dad literally did like something very similar about 16. He said to me now, if you want to try drugs, just let me know and I'll get them for you. And I just went, oh my God.
Butcher: 48:01
The least cool thing you could possibly do.
Hunter: 48:04
I'm never doing drugs and basically I very like, pretty much haven't, because it was the uncoolest thing. He could have said oh, that's amazing.
Butcher: 48:15
By way as a minor sort of scientific experiment. Butcher's sister is 10 years younger. Butcher's younger sister never had that conversation. Butcher's younger sister has definitely done more drugs than Butcher.
Hunter: 48:26
It's wild.
Butcher: 48:29
I find it endlessly entertaining.
Ellecia: 48:32
Now we know which conversations to have with our kids.
Hunter: 48:37
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Butcher: 48:40
It's just reverse psychology, uh-huh, yeah, yeah amazing. That's why I'm not pushing back against child one's latent christian fundamentalism, because she's that is a really good point actually. No, it sounds weird, but it's a good point because she's she's good, she's a church of england school because it's the school nearest to where we live. And she's, she's convinced. She's convinced it's all real, it all happened. I mean, she's six, so she's got time to change her mind. The rest of us, and we're not religious. But also, if I stop, this is news I am not religious.
Butcher: 49:17
I'm very comfortable with my atheism. I'm less comfortable with my spouse. But if I start pushing back and this is a metaphor for polyamorism as well in different scenarios if I push back against my six-year-old's interest in religion, it's probably going to make her more religious, and we've had this a couple of times with couples where one of them's been really interested and the other one isn't, or someone's being dragged into it and the other one isn't, the other one's into it, sorry. And the more someone resists, the bigger the problem it causes.
Butcher: 49:53
And then what then happens, though, is they'll go with it, and then you get the other problem, which is they are asymmetrical in their levels of interest. So we've had a couple a couple of couples, really where the female's been very into it, loves it, gets all the attention, it's great. The guy's been dragged, kicking and screaming, and you can tell I wouldn't say from a mile away, but you can tell, you know pretty quickly that they're getting dragged along and again that instinct I was talking about earlier on, knowing what that looks and feels like and staying the hell away from it, because if a couple is asymmetrical, going into this in any way, um, it just won't end well. They'll end up having a problem, or you'll end up having a problem with them, or it just causes a bunch of strife. So this is why we're very interested in the support for couples, because we feel like we're very balanced about all this stuff. We can feel we can see imbalance in others, and that will yeah, yeah, but also I have lots of feelings about that just going back.
Hunter: 50:59
If child one decides that she is christian, then that's also completely valid. But we've given her the space to go. This is who I am and no one ever fought me on it, so I can truly be who I want to be and for me it's not my thing. But if she wants to go to church on christmas eve, we actually had a lovely time. Not my thing, don't believe in it, but she was happy.
Butcher: 51:26
Her sister was happy, we had we had I was singing, so no one else was happy.
Hunter: 51:35
Yeah and we'll probably do the same at easter as well, because at least then there's a balance of we're meeting you part way where you want to be and you know it's not feeling like we're having to do it every Sunday and blah.
Ellecia: 51:48
So everyone gets a bit, yeah yeah, yeah, and they all come around eventually.
Hunter: 51:56
Thank you, good to know mine went through that too okay, I hear it's a phase, but even so, yeah, I don't want to like, let them have it it's like playing dress up in fact, that's literally what they did at this service. They gave them all costumes to dress up in. They know how to appeal to the children.
Ellecia: 52:24
Yeah, I mean, that's what a lot of people like about swinging the costumes and the themes, getting to play dress-ups. You can't do that in your everyday life.
Hunter: 52:38
Wow.
Butcher: 52:39
Now the funny thing is isn't it, isn't it so? Over here. We've got a uh a fetish we've got. I'm sure there's fetish events everywhere, but in england there's a particularly long-running one called torture gardens and we've done that one. I've done it three times. You've done a couple of times, haven't you? And I love it because I get to dress up have you done it?
Hunter: 52:59
no? Have you been to torchgate?
Ellecia: 53:00
okay, you mean to like a fat life type event oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh yeah honestly, come on, yeah, I'm, I'm in seattle, we have, we have a lot of um events and things, stuff. But, yes, you get to dress up, you get to like take on a role, you get to play up, you get to like take on a role, you get to play, make believe, you get, you know, all the, all the fun things that, um, that we don't get to do when we're being really responsible adults running our lives and I'm very, yeah, I'm very on board with it, Yep.
Ellecia: 53:32
Yep, uh, okay, tell me this. Is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would want to share with listeners?
Hunter: 53:48
I've got more of a question for you, and I think it's something that we, when you asked us what we wanted to talk about, mainly because of your experience, is we were talking about this before we started recording of, and you're actually perfectly placed for this, I think. But yeah, now, as someone who has x amount of years as a polyamorous swinger, cnn, em, whatever label you want to put to it when you meet someone who's new in some respect and wants a piece of you or wants to become polyamorous or have a relationship with you, how do you work with that, based on the fact that you are the one who's effectively the experienced one and leading the way, etc. And you are dealing with someone who doesn't know what they don't know? How do you balance that off or do you? God, that's so hard.
Ellecia: 54:52
That's funny you know, I, uh, okay, so we, we've been non-monogamous for 10 years. Uh, we, my husband and I, um, and I remember when, like when we first started there, we started going to swingers clubs and there were a lot of people who were like, oh no, we don't, we don't hook up with new people, uh, and we were like, why, how are you supposed to even get experience? Like, how are you supposed to know what you're doing if you can't do anything right? And then now I look and I'm like, oh, iew, I see why they said that. But also I think you have to have a really good, like Hunter said, you have to listen to your gut, right? Because it's funny, because the other day we were at well, we went to an event this weekend and I remember telling someone like, oh, my God, I've hit this place where, because I'm so open you know, I'm just out here, this is just what I'm doing Um, where I have, I have this I don't know if I want to say privilege, but like, like this assumption, I started walking through life assuming that everyone is non-monogamous, which also is not good I'm like, oh shit, maybe I should pull back and not flirt with them.
Ellecia: 56:09
Shit, I should check. I've just started assuming that everyone is non-monogamous and everyone has great relationship skills and everyone talks about this stuff, and I've been really lucky in that most of the people I run into are somewhere on that spectrum. But when I'm interacting with people who, like, don't have much experience, I asked lots of questions. That's how I do it. I ask tons and tons of questions about where they're at, what they're doing, what they're wanting, what they're hoping to get, and I find, like, without having to, like, take on a teacher role or having to be a mentor or being a parent or hand-holding, I just get them to do their own introspection by asking lots of questions. What does that look like for you, which is essentially coaching? So I coach them. Yeah, cool, essentially coaching. So I coach them, yeah, cool, but in a non-coercive way. Yeah, yeah, totally right, because, like you know, they may not know the answers to those things because nobody's asked them and so they might have to go get about it.
Butcher: 57:15
Let me figure that out, yeah by the way, going back to what you were saying, I I have recently had that experience of going around local supermarkets and like having that sense check which is they're attractive, but just by bisexual. So we could sort of like we've been check out together and then you realize, oh no, most people are. We should probably stop doing this. It's not fair, it's entertaining, but it's not fair.
Hunter: 57:44
I appreciate a good guy as well on my behalf, of course, occasionally. You're not bisexual, you. You're not blind either.
Butcher: 57:53
I'm not blind. I've also now become very highly attuned to what Butcher likes turns out it's foreigners.
Hunter: 58:00
I love a european, I love an american, I love I, just, I just love it.
Butcher: 58:04
I'm with you on that you nearly had an australian on the on the tick list, didn't you? I feel like I feel like butchers nearly. Uh, I feel like butch. Got like little bingo card of nations just working your way around we should make one of those yes, we could do nation bingo, yes, poly nation bingo
Ellecia: 58:24
yes, that actually feels like a proper ball, like I got canadian, australian, brazilian, I got most of north, most of north america, covered semi-central my only.
Butcher: 58:41
But the only one I'm gonna get is saint lucia, which is very niche, but I've got that one covered you got it.
Hunter: 58:47
I'll probably never get that one now yeah, I mean, it's quite a niche one, isn't it? Yeah, it's very niche yeah, that's amazing I've had texan, so I feel like that's texan.
Ellecia: 59:02
You know, the us is so big you have to do states though.
Hunter: 59:05
Yeah, I was gonna say like when you're doing like all of europe it's not quite the same here when you say like I've done manchester or I've done birmingham, it's less yeah, it's less, just generally have you guys seen that dating show, the naked dating show? That's a uk one oh naked, it's. Oh naked attraction. Naked attraction, yeah. So I've seen snippets of it, because it's like those things that if you're all in the office together and someone's watched it, and it's been particularly cringy.
Ellecia: 59:49
What made me think of that was, um, we watched a couple of episodes I don't love it, but it's also entertaining and naked bodies, um, but what the thing that got me was this guy saying I think it was a guy, I know it was a lady and she was like she disqualified a guy because of his acts. She was like I don't know, I don't think he'll, I don't remember if it was a Northern or a Southern accent, and I'm like I don't know what either of that means. And he was talking and it was a really lovely, sexy accent and she was like can't do that. But yeah, and they're all from the UK.
Butcher: 1:00:21
So I was like like I don't know it all sounds foreign to me, so we all sound foreign to each other here so you go from one county to the next and this you speak, yeah, like a different tongue.
Hunter: 1:00:31
I literally. There are some parts of our own country that you go to. You cannot. I cannot understand what they're saying, because this accent is so thick that you just wouldn't have a clue of what they're saying again in bill bryson's book mother tongue.
Butcher: 1:00:47
There's more um more variation in english in england than there is in all the united states and there used to be. It's about 100 years ago now, maybe 150 years ago, but the way certain words were pronounced changed every 50 miles between oo and er, oo and er, oo and er as you got further and further away from London, and there's parts of Wales where words are pronounced differently in different valleys that are right next to each other. So there's just this huge amount of vocal variation. This has got nothing to do with polyamory, but it's interesting. Yes, I love a good fact polyamory they pronounce it differently in
Hunter: 1:01:30
different places yes, no, I, I couldn't even say the word on last week's podcast. Oh you, I'm like. I run a podcast on polyamorism and I literally could not say it.
Butcher: 1:01:44
You were a bit of shit last week, weren't you?
Hunter: 1:01:46
I was not having a good week. I was not having a good week. Yeah, in all the ways, Football speaking yeah.
Butcher: 1:01:54
I think Freud, and I just took it out of you, thank you.
Ellecia: 1:01:58
Where can people find your podcast?
Butcher: 1:02:01
Me then, sorry, right. So we are on Spotify, we're on Apple Podcasts, we're on all the usual channels. It's called the Polly Pocket Podcast. We have an Instagram as well, which is Polly Pocket Show.
Hunter: 1:02:13
Polly underscore Pocket underscore show.
Butcher: 1:02:18
Thank you, definitely. Yes, that's us amazing, amazing.
Ellecia: 1:02:23
I have one more question for you and I'll put links in the show notes for you guys, um, but I have one more question that does not go on the main episode but is for our patreon subscribers at patreoncom slash, not monogamous, love it, and this segment is called just the tip, and it's what is your or what is, uh, something you can share, that is a favorite or best sex tip. Amazing, you guys are so much fun. I'm so glad you came on. You guys are a blast and, um, everyone should go listen to you because, uh, this is fantastic, I love it no, thank you.
Hunter: 1:03:13
Thank you for having us, thank you for suggesting it. Yeah, absolutely absolutely it, yeah great, absolutely. Go with it again sometime, come to us.
Ellecia: 1:03:24
I'm in. Okay, yeah, sweet, and that was Hunter and Butcher from the Polly Pocket podcast. And if you aren't a member of our Patreon community and you didn't just hear that brilliant tip hint, it was advice on how to be wildly popular at a sex club Go to patreoncom. Slash, not monogamous, become one of our friends with benefits or lovers, and get all of the extras, like the just the tip segment. Thanks so much for listening today. Until next time, just keep talking and listening. Bye.